The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #31 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 05, 2019, 01:32pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,742
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Point is, once the player has been ejected/DQ'd or whatever term you want to use, it is no longer in your hands.
So by this logic, say you DQ a player for a 5th foul. Then he calls you an expletive on his way off the court. Is it no longer in your hands to award an unsporting technical because it would be his 6th?

There is a case play that precisely allows you to grant this sixth foul. To me, it therefore follows that there is no prohibition against fouls (technical and/or personal) above the DQ threshold.

I agree with BillyMac....rapid fire Ts are not desirable, but an additional T for an additional specific unsporting act as in the OP cannot be ignored and should be penalized.
Reply With Quote
  #32 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 05, 2019, 01:50pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Automatic ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
... lobbed the ball towards the ref who was not looking. The ball hit him directly in the back of the head and the ref went down ...
Not always an automatic technical foul, need some context and intent to decide.

I've had players toss me the ball thinking I was paying attention when I was actually concentrating on something else and I've been hit with the ball, and I've seen the same thing happen to partners, and in games I was observing.

(I've also tossed the ball to my partner and had a player cross the path of the ball and get hit with that ball.)

Yeah, it's probably T-worthy, but it could also just be an accident, wrong place, wrong time, no intent of unsporting conduct, or harm.

(I've also hit a player in the face while looking at the table for the possession arrow direction and pointing the direction without looking where I was pointing. Ouch. Not my finest hour.)
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Mar 06, 2019 at 02:25pm.
Reply With Quote
  #33 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 05, 2019, 02:20pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Coaches Too ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdoebler View Post
Sorry, just player techs
Don't forget substitutes and bench personnel. And you probably want to throw in coaches too?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #34 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 06, 2019, 10:53am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,013
You are reaching. This (OP) is about 2 T's on a play resulting in an exit from the game. It is not about some idle comment after a 5th foul or any of the other cases that have been proposed. Stop reaching. And please do not use "If they commit an infraction of the rules, penalize it." as my tag line explains that garbage. Some indicate to give a 3rd T but yet do not give multiple consecutively. Wow, hypocrite city. Rules/case book provide the information. I have neither heard nor seen anyone give a third T unless they were going against the rule/case books. I will probably see that when, in the same game, multiple fouls are called on the same play, lol. BM, why ask for citations when they were already provided? The rule book tells us what to do regarding ejections and the case book gives plenty of guidance regarding the game becoming unmanageable. Remember also that this was a rec league so the level of oversight plummets.

I can see it now CC. You call 5th foul. Players swears at you. You call a T. Player swears at you again as they walk away from you. You call a T. Player swears at you again from a greater distance. You call a T. As player nears door to exit gym with trainer (player was injured during play), they swear at you again. You call a T. See where this is going? Come on, use common sense. How about this, adult rec league, player gets his nose completely shattered/broken on a play. The player drops 4 consecutive F bombs. You quickly blow your whistle 4 consecutive times forming the T signal with your hands and give the other team 8 FT's. Lol, would love to see that. Yes, these are extreme examples, but so are the cases being provided. Use common sense and don't ever throw literal rules at all situations. Use rule 2-3 in a sound manner to cover the ultra rare plays that happen once in a lifetime. And we all ignore plenty of actions/rules so do not use the argument that an action/rule can't be ignored.

Come on CR, any further action is not "ignored", it is just handled by a different authority.
__________________
If some rules are never enforced, then why do they exist?

Last edited by bucky; Wed Mar 06, 2019 at 10:59am.
Reply With Quote
  #35 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 06, 2019, 01:40pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Context ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
You call 5th foul. Players swears at you. You call a T. Player swears at you again as they walk away from you. You call a T. Player swears at you again from a greater distance. You call a T. As player nears door to exit gym with trainer (player was injured during play), they swear at you again. You call a T. See where this is going?
First period. A1 taunts B1. First technical foul. Second period. A1 swears at official. Second technical foul and disqualified to the bench. Third period. A1, on bench, stands and loudly complains about a call. Third technical foul, coach sits, and a discussion ensues with the head coach about a possible "ejection" of A1 to the locker room with adult supervision in lieu of a possible forfeit.

The NFHS doesn't say that I can't charge a third technical foul to A1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
... adult rec league, player gets his nose completely shattered/broken on a play. The player drops 4 consecutive F bombs.
If he's not swearing at me, and not swearing at an opponent, and is just in a lot of pain, the f-bomb can be ignored. In this case, all four f-bombs can be ignored.

If he is swearing at me, or is swearing at an opponent, four rapid fire f-bombs in a row will get him only one (not four) technical foul (probably flagrant). After I report the technical foul to the table, and after the player with the broken nose has a few seconds to compose himself (having time to process that he just got penalized for the first tirade), if he swears at me (or an opponent) again, I will charge him a second technical foul (even if the first one was flagrant).
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Mar 06, 2019 at 04:33pm.
Reply With Quote
  #36 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 06, 2019, 01:47pm
rsl rsl is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 301
I have given a 3rd T only once.

A player received two, and the league required DQ'd players to leave the venue. He returned ten minutes later to get something he forgot, stopped at the door on his way out the door the second time and yelled at me and my partner.

I didn't see the need to forfeit the game, so a third technical was appropriate, and I think it is allowed by rule.

I also agree with the other sentiment expressed here to avoid rapid fire technical fouls- they don't help and it is better to let things settle down. But, mine wasn't rapid fire. He came back after leaving.
Reply With Quote
  #37 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 06, 2019, 02:00pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Pick A Prize From the Top Shelf ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsl View Post
I have given a 3rd T only once ... and I think it is allowed by rule.
And you'd be correct.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #38 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 06, 2019, 11:01pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,013
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
First period. A1 taunts B1. First technical foul. Second period. A1 swears at official. Second technical foul and disqualified to the bench. Third period. A1, on bench, stands and loudly complains about a call. Third technical foul, coach sits, and a discussion ensues with the head coach about a possible "ejection" of A1 to the locker room with adult supervision in lieu of a possible forfeit.

The NFHS doesn't say that I can't charge a third technical foul to A1.

If he's not swearing at me, and not swearing at an opponent, and is just in a lot of pain, the f-bomb can be ignored. In this case, all four f-bombs can be ignored.

If he is swearing at me, or is swearing at an opponent, four rapid fire f-bombs in a row will get him only one (not four) technical foul (probably flagrant). After I report the technical foul to the table, and after the player with the broken nose has a few seconds to compose himself (having time to process that he just got penalized for the first tirade), if he swears at me (or an opponent) again, I will charge him a second technical foul (even if the first one was flagrant).
You (plural) keep coming up with scenarios other than the OP. Whatever it takes to fit "your" situation. If, for your last case, I was the official, I would have him removed after the second T. Or, ignore the complaint, after all who cares about that in a rec league. It should be common that you would not even hear the player, lol. Or, If you allow him to stay on bench and feel the need to give a T, just issue a bench technical and then have player removed. Or, just have him removed. Diffuse and avoid making it worse.

Not sure why four in a row would not require you to give 4 T's. How much time do you allow between actions? Clearly, it is your discretion, which is exactly what is available to everyone. What if they were 11 F bombs at you in complete succession? Gonna rattle off the T signal with your hands 11 quick times when he is done? Pfft, nah, then you would be making the travesty. I am not believing that you would ignore a player swearing loudly out of anger/frustration. Not buying that you would allow players to continuously swear out loud an entire game just because it is not at you/opponent. Not even close to making that purchase.

I am done on this one. However, for those that are on the bubble, trust me, do not issue more than 2 technicals on a player as described in the OP. Let the player make headlines, not you.
__________________
If some rules are never enforced, then why do they exist?

Last edited by bucky; Wed Mar 06, 2019 at 11:06pm.
Reply With Quote
  #39 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 07, 2019, 03:25am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
You are reaching. This (OP) is about 2 T's on a play resulting in an exit from the game. It is not about some idle comment after a 5th foul or any of the other cases that have been proposed. Stop reaching. And please do not use "If they commit an infraction of the rules, penalize it." as my tag line explains that garbage. Some indicate to give a 3rd T but yet do not give multiple consecutively. Wow, hypocrite city. Rules/case book provide the information. I have neither heard nor seen anyone give a third T unless they were going against the rule/case books. I will probably see that when, in the same game, multiple fouls are called on the same play, lol. BM, why ask for citations when they were already provided? The rule book tells us what to do regarding ejections and the case book gives plenty of guidance regarding the game becoming unmanageable. Remember also that this was a rec league so the level of oversight plummets.

I can see it now CC. You call 5th foul. Players swears at you. You call a T. Player swears at you again as they walk away from you. You call a T. Player swears at you again from a greater distance. You call a T. As player nears door to exit gym with trainer (player was injured during play), they swear at you again. You call a T. See where this is going? Come on, use common sense. How about this, adult rec league, player gets his nose completely shattered/broken on a play. The player drops 4 consecutive F bombs. You quickly blow your whistle 4 consecutive times forming the T signal with your hands and give the other team 8 FT's. Lol, would love to see that. Yes, these are extreme examples, but so are the cases being provided. Use common sense and don't ever throw literal rules at all situations. Use rule 2-3 in a sound manner to cover the ultra rare plays that happen once in a lifetime. And we all ignore plenty of actions/rules so do not use the argument that an action/rule can't be ignored.

Come on CR, any further action is not "ignored", it is just handled by a different authority.
Quit making stuff up.

If you have ANYTHING in the rule or case book that backs up your claim even remotely, I've love to see a citation rather than a bunch of rambling hot air.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
  #40 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 07, 2019, 10:32am
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,770
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Quit making stuff up.

If you have ANYTHING in the rule or case book that backs up your claim even remotely, I've love to see a citation rather than a bunch of rambling hot air.
Now you've done it. Here come another 1000 words.
Reply With Quote
  #41 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 07, 2019, 10:40am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Expletive Words ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
What if they were 11 F bombs at you in complete succession? Gonna rattle off the T signal with your hands 11 quick times when he is done?
I don't count expletives. A player calling me a "f**k**g a**h**e" doesn't get a technical foul for each expletive word. I don't believe that that's the purpose and intent of the unsporting rule.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I'm not going to fire away with technicals like a machine gun, but I'm not automatically stopping at two.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
If he is swearing at me ... four rapid fire f-bombs in a row will get him only one (not four) technical foul (probably flagrant). After I report the technical foul to the table, and after the player with the broken nose has a few seconds to compose himself (having time to process that he just got penalized for the first tirade), if he swears at me ... again, I will charge him a second technical foul (even if the first one was flagrant).
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
I am not believing that you would ignore a player swearing loudly out of anger/frustration. Not buying that you would allow players to continuously swear out loud an entire game just because it is not at you/opponent.
Never said anger/frustration (that, at minimum, would lead to a discussion with said player), I was describing an extreme injury situation. I seldom use the f-word, it's how I was brought up in my Irish Catholic family with a Lutheran raised mother, where my brother and I weren't even allowed to utter "Shut up" to each other, and where I once repeated a friend's curse using the f-word and got my mouth washed out with soap. Never once heard either my father or my mother ever use any curse word. Never. Not even once. Not even a "damn".

That being said, if I were to receive a blow to the face that resulted in a broken nose, or dropped a gigantic rock on my foot, or fell on some ice and broke a leg, I can assure you that the f-word would probably come rolling out of my mouth.

But when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, he that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. (John 8:7)

(Note: I once confessed to my pastor that while stuck in my every day horrible traffic commute, that I would occasionally use the f-word and the word "God" in the same sentence. After asking where my commute took place, he said that it was completely understandable. No penance, but he suggested that whenever such a situation occurred, rather than swear, instead I should say a prayer that the other driver gets home safely. I followed his advice never swore again in traffic, said a few prayers, and had much more enjoyable commutes with a much lower blood pressure. My pastor is a wise man.)
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Mar 07, 2019 at 11:13am.
Reply With Quote
  #42 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 07, 2019, 11:51am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,505
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
You are reaching.....
I have done it a couple times. Once tourney and once varsity. If a coach fails to get his kid in order and the kid refuses to act with some form of civility here come some more T's. In both cases the coach had an assistant or whomever usher the kid out of the gym (smart on the coach). Not only do the rules support this, but I was never paid enough to put up with that level of excrement.
__________________
in OS I trust
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A seven-game Saturday bainsey Basketball 16 Mon Jun 25, 2012 01:01am
Looking for something to do this Saturday? Mark Padgett Basketball 8 Mon Apr 13, 2009 07:40am
3 Ts on Saturday A Pennsylvania Coach Basketball 3 Mon Feb 02, 2009 04:27pm
BIG Game Saturday TXMike Football 0 Mon Sep 10, 2007 06:25pm
Saturday funnies Mark Padgett Basketball 12 Sun Dec 05, 2004 10:37pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:51am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1