Shooter landing on defender laying on floor

[thedewed]

Originally Posted by just another ref

B is in a zone defense. A1 catches deep in the corner and squares up to shoot a 3. B1, on the block, turns his back to A1 to prepare for a rebound. A1 puts the ball on the floor and drives baseline. B1 is totally stationary. A1 runs right up his back. You call a block on B1 for this?

exactly. what have you got, nothing? certainly not a charge. if a defender isn't ball-aware enough to turn and square up, and is in the route of the driver, and there is contact, it's a block.

I suppose if the context isn't a legit bball play, i.e. the dribbler is simply seeking out an unwary defender, rather than making a legit play on the basket, I'd look at it differently, but if a dribbler is making a basketball move and comes in contact with a defensive player, if the defensive player isn't in LGP, if there is enough contact for a foul, the foul is on the defense.

I was officiating games with NBA players over 20 years ago and had them eating out of my hand, via common sense. I don't need to talk to anyone. If anyone can come up with a video of a D1 official calling a charge on a dribbler driving into a defensive player at the basket with his back to him, put it up. It won't happen.

I'm talking about men's basketball here...if it's a non-basketball play, that's different. Same with player on the floor. If a dribbler takes a path intentionally to run over a player on the floor, and it's obvious he's simply trying to get a call from a naive official, I wouldn't make that call. Use common sense.

I've never seen either of these things happen or get called the way you all describe it, ever, at least in D1 or pro.

You all have younger officials on here looking for actual guidance as they progress, I'd be careful filling their heads with inappropriate concepts. The answer here in legit bball plays is, was the defensive player in legal guarding position. If not, it certainly isn't a charge, and is either a no-call or a block.

some of you are reading too much into the 'entitled to a position on the floor' language in the books, that doesn't overrule the need for LGP. If you called a charge in a game where a driver direct to the basket collided with a defensive player that was looking for the rebound and had his back to the drive, you would get laughed out of the gym, if it was men's basketball.

[CJP]

A player control foul is simply a "common foul" by a player who is in control of the ball or by an airborne shooter. A common foul is a personal foul which is neither flagrant nor intentional nor committed against a player trying or tapping for a field goal nor part of a double, simultaneous or multiple foul. These are essentially word for word definitions out of the rule book. Neither mention LGP.

Edit:

The definition of a personal foul does not mention LGP either.

[Pantherdreams]

LGP position is not the requirement for calling fouls on the offense. If it was rebounding fouls, holding fouls, illegal screens, pushing fouls would not exist.

If you don't want to call a charge because the the defense is not in LGP and taking one in the chest I can see that. However the options are not just no call or call a block.

While both those exist there are a number of other fouls that are not charges that may apply to a player running into another player who is in their cylinder. Simply from the stand point of reducing rough play you would likely be able to justify any number of them.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by thedewed

exactly. what have you got, nothing? certainly not a charge. if a defender isn't ball-aware enough to turn and square up, and is in the route of the driver, and there is contact, it's a block.

I suppose if the context isn't a legit bball play, i.e. the dribbler is simply seeking out an unwary defender, rather than making a legit play on the basket, I'd look at it differently, but if a dribbler is making a basketball move and comes in contact with a defensive player, if the defensive player isn't in LGP, if there is enough contact for a foul, the foul is on the defense.

I was officiating games with NBA players over 20 years ago and had them eating out of my hand, via common sense. I don't need to talk to anyone. If anyone can come up with a video of a D1 official calling a charge on a dribbler driving into a defensive player at the basket with his back to him, put it up. It won't happen.

I'm talking about men's basketball here...if it's a non-basketball play, that's different. Same with player on the floor. If a dribbler takes a path intentionally to run over a player on the floor, and it's obvious he's simply trying to get a call from a naive official, I wouldn't make that call. Use common sense.

I've never seen either of these things happen or get called the way you all describe it, ever, at least in D1 or pro.

You all have younger officials on here looking for actual guidance as they progress, I'd be careful filling their heads with inappropriate concepts. The answer here in legit bball plays is, was the defensive player in legal guarding position. If not, it certainly isn't a charge, and is either a no-call or a block.

some of you are reading too much into the 'entitled to a position on the floor' language in the books, that doesn't overrule the need for LGP. If you called a charge in a game where a driver direct to the basket collided with a defensive player that was looking for the rebound and had his back to the drive, you would get laughed out of the gym, if it was men's basketball.

You're half right. The proper call cannot be a charge. It would be a pushing foul on the offense.

[Altor]

Originally Posted by thedewed

exactly. what have you got, nothing? certainly not a charge. if a defender isn't ball-aware enough to turn and square up, and is in the route of the driver, and there is contact, it's a block.

Originally Posted by 10-7-7

A dribbler shall neither charge into nor contact an opponent in his/her path nor attempt to dribble between two opponents or between an opponent and a boundary, unless the space is such as to provide a reasonable chance for him/ her to go through without contact.

Hmm. That rule doesn't say anything about the opponent being "squared up".

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by thedewed

exactly. what have you got, nothing? certainly not a charge. if a defender isn't ball-aware enough to turn and square up, and is in the route of the driver, and there is contact, it's a block.

Wrong.

Originally Posted by thedewed

I suppose if the context isn't a legit bball play, i.e. the dribbler is simply seeking out an unwary defender, rather than making a legit play on the basket, I'd look at it differently, but if a dribbler is making a basketball move and comes in contact with a defensive player, if the defensive player isn't in LGP, if there is enough contact for a foul, the foul is on the defense.

Wrong.

Originally Posted by thedewed

I was officiating games with NBA players over 20 years ago and had them eating out of my hand, via common sense. I don't need to talk to anyone. If anyone can come up with a video of a D1 official calling a charge on a dribbler driving into a defensive player at the basket with his back to him, put it up. It won't happen.

Bullshitting people for 20 years doesn't make it right.

Originally Posted by thedewed

You all have younger officials on here looking for actual guidance as they progress, I'd be careful filling their heads with inappropriate concepts. The answer here in legit bball plays is, was the defensive player in legal guarding position. If not, it certainly isn't a charge, and is either a no-call or a block.

Then you should stop posting now. You're suggesting people just plays entire by made up rules.....which is wrong any way you look at it.

Originally Posted by thedewed

some of you are reading too much into the 'entitled to a position on the floor' language in the books, that doesn't overrule the need for LGP. If you called a charge in a game where a driver direct to the basket collided with a defensive player that was looking for the rebound and had his back to the drive, you would get laughed out of the gym, if it was men's basketball.

Only because people like you insist on making up stuff as they go instead of calling it correctly.