Player Laying on the Floor

[Da Official]

Had a situation last night where B1 jumps to block a shot and he falls to the ground in the lane. Ball bounces off the rim and A2 grabs the rebounds and attempts to step to his left to shoot and falls over B1 who is still on the ground. B1 made no attempt to stop A2 or contact him.

NFHS rules. Do we have a call here? If so what is the correct call? Does LGP have a place here?

Does it matter if B2 is:
a) Laying on his back?
b) On his knees trying to get up?

I'm sure we talked over this type of scenario before but apparently I am horrible at SEARCHES.

Thanks guys!

[Scrapper1]

In NFHS, every player is entitled to his/her position on the court, provided s/he got there legally -- even if that position is lying down. In NCAA, a player lying on the floor does NOT have a legal position.

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by Da Official

NFHS rules. Do we have a call here? If so what is the correct call? Does LGP have a place here?

Does it matter if B2 is:
a) Laying on his back?
b) On his knees trying to get up?

I'm sure we talked over this type of scenario before but apparently I am horrible at SEARCHES.

Thanks guys!

Was A2 still holding the ball when he fell to the floor?

[Da Official]

@ Scrap......that was my understanding also.

@PG Ref......let's ignore the potential travel (if that's what you are getting at)....I was really trying to focus on if we had a foul or not. (From what I recall A2 was in the act of shooting when he fell over B1)

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

In NFHS, every player is entitled to his/her position on the court, provided s/he got there legally -- even if that position is lying down. In NCAA, a player lying on the floor does NOT have a legal position.

When did B1 establish legal guarding position on the A player that got the rebound and shot the ball? To obtain legal: must have both feet touching the playing court and facing the opponent...I will call this a foul every single time.

[GoodwillRef]

B1 hand established legal guarding positon on A1 not A2...Foul on B1

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

When did B1 establish legal guarding position on the A player that got the rebound and shot the ball? To obtain legal: must have both feet touching the playing court and facing the opponent...I will call this a foul every single time.

Under NFHS rules, it is not relevant unless B1 was either jumping or moving. A stationary defender doesn't need LGP. LGP only grants the defender the right to be moving at the time of contact.

If you call this foul (B1 laying on the floor) every single time in HS, you will call it wrong every single time.

If B1 is rising and contacts A* while rising, that would be a foul as they are moving but don't have LGP.

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

When did B1 establish legal guarding position on the A player that got the rebound and shot the ball? To obtain legal: must have both feet touching the playing court and facing the opponent...I will call this a foul every single time.

B1 was not guarding anyone at the time. What illegal contact did B1 initiate that warrants a foul?

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by PG_Ref

B1 was not guarding anyone at the time. What illegal contact did B1 initiate that warrants a foul?

The guy tripped over another guy. Clumsy is not a foul.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

A stationary defender doesn't need LGP. LGP only grants the defender the right to be moving at the time of contact.

+1

This is exactly how to think about LGP, which is always raised in this scenario but is a red herring.

[Rufus]

I guess I need help with this one. Let's start with 4-23-2a & b:

To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.

Please help me understand how a player lying on the floor obtained legal guarding position. If your point is that LGP doesn't apply, how do you jibe the resulting fall of A2 with 10-6-1:

A player shall not hold, push, charge, trip or impede the progress of an opponent by extending arm(s), shoulder(s), hip(s) or knee(s), or by bending his/her body into other than a normal position; nor use any rough tactics.

Is lying on the floor considered a "normal position?"

The original posting didn't indicate if B1 had obtaining legal guarding position before falling after the block attempt. That's one scenario that I might see LGP applying, but I don't think that was the point of the post.

This was a point of emphasis for our association this year and was a question on our test if I recall correctly. The conclusion reached is that this is a foul on B1.

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by Rufus

I guess I need help with this one. Let's start with 4-23-2a & b:

To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.

Please help me understand how a player lying on the floor obtained legal guarding position. If your point is that LGP doesn't apply, how do you jibe the resulting fall of A2 with 10-6-1:

A player shall not hold, push, charge, trip or impede the progress of an opponent by extending arm(s), shoulder(s), hip(s) or knee(s), or by bending his/her body into other than a normal position; nor use any rough tactics.

Is lying on the floor considered a "normal position?"

The original posting didn't indicate if B1 had obtaining legal guarding position before falling after the block attempt. That's one scenario that I might see LGP applying, but I don't think that was the point of the post.

This was a point of emphasis for our association this year and was a question on our test if I recall correctly. The conclusion reached is that this is a foul on B1.

The player on the floor did not extend arm(s), shoulder(s), hip(s), knee(s), or bend his/her body. Nor did he use rough tactics. He was just a bump on a log.

[Back In The Saddle]

IIRC, the justification for this interp was this: "Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent."

The takeaway was that "Every player is entitled to a spot on the floor, even if that spot is, temporarily, lying on the floor".

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Rufus

I guess I need help with this one.

Is lying on the floor considered a "normal position?"

Rufus, forget legal guarding position. It's got dick-all to do with the call. Every player on the court is entitled to a legal position on the court. It says that specifically in the preamble of rule 4-23..."Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent.". That statement includes a player laying on the court.

If a player ran into the back of another player blocking out on a rebound, would you call the foul on the player blocking out because they didn't establish a legal guarding position?

Use the same concept for players laying on the floor.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

When did B1 establish legal guarding position on the A player that got the rebound and shot the ball? To obtain legal: must have both feet touching the playing court and facing the opponent...I will call this a foul every single time.

And you will be wrong, IMO. LGP isn't required for a stationary player.