Shooter jumps into the airborne defender

[zanzibar]

I have 2 similar cases.
Case 1: B1 is running out to defend the jump shot. B1 is going "nearly" straight at the shooter A1. B1 jumps about 5 feet forward to contest the shot but clearly is going past the shooter without contact. B1 does jump first. The shooter jumps sideways and creates contact. Who is the foul on?

Case 2: Similar case. B1 is running out to defend the jump shot. This time B1 does not take a path beside the shooter, but is going straight at the shooter. B1 has body control when he jumps to contest the shot. B1's body is going to stop about a foot before he gets to the shooter. B1 is clearly not going to make contact with A1 the shooter if A1 goes straight up with the shot. If A1 jumps forward into B1, who is the foul on?

Summation:
It seems to me that an airborne player can not change his path or to backup, therefore it should be a foul on the shooter in these cases. I hear other opinions. Help would be appreciated.

[BktBallRef]

It's not going to be a foul on the shooter in either situation. The defender does not have LGP, nor is he within his verticality.

Change the plays and have the defender doing the same thing, only not airborne. What do you have?

[Adam]

Foul on the defense. A moving player without LGP who is moving towards the shooter. Defensive player shouldn't be so quick to commit.

[Smitty]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
It's not going to be a foul on the shooter in either situation. The defender does not have LGP, nor is he within his verticality.

Change the plays and have the defender doing the same thing, only not airborne. What do you have?

I still have a foul on the defense. Defender moves into the path of an airborne shooter - that's a block. Did I miss something?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Smitty

I still have a foul on the defense. Defender moves into the path of an airborne shooter - that's a block. Did I miss something?

I'm thinking the first play could be a no-call, Smitty. If the defender is clearly planning to go past the shooter, and shooter moves sideways toward the defender, that's sure not a defensive foul, even if it's not offensive, either. (Hey, look, MTD, those words go well in that sentence!)

On the second one, I think I'd have to be there. If A1 alters his path to draw a foul, I may no-call it, but it's hard to tell from this description.

[Smitty]

Originally posted by rainmaker

I'm thinking the first play could be a no-call, Smitty. If the defender is clearly planning to go past the shooter, and shooter moves sideways toward the defender, that's sure not a defensive foul, even if it's not offensive, either. (Hey, look, MTD, those words go well in that sentence!)

On the second one, I think I'd have to be there. If A1 alters his path to draw a foul, I may no-call it, but it's hard to tell from this description.

You could be right - it's just so hard to have the same image of plays when they are described in this way. Judgement call plays are always the hardest to get a mojority agreement on. Even if we all saw the play, we might all have differing opinions on how it should be called.

[Kelvin green]

Everybody has been quick here to say this foul is on the defense. I am going to say HOLD ON! not quite so fast..

Lets go back to our basketball fundamentals. If the defense has jumped first which both at least the first play says and implies in the second. (yes, over committed) He is entitled to the spot on the floor. This is no different than when a defender takes away the landing spot for the offensive shooter. If the landing spot is taken away by the offense then it is a foul on the offensive player.

Why would we let an offensive player commit a foul, that we would clearly call on the defense if the roles were reversed?

Play 1 defense jumps FIRST and will go to side of player and Offense jumps into an airborne defender. I cant see how you would ever call this on the defense... No call a minimum... but offense takes away landing spot by causing contact, jumps into path to draw foul, initiates the contact, and we want to penalize the defender, PC foul may be a harder sell but I think the rules require it.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Smitty

I still have a foul on the defense. Defender moves into the path of an airborne shooter - that's a block. Did I miss something?

No. That's my point. The fouls don't change just because the defender is airborne.

By rule, both fouls are on the defense. You may or may not choose to call the first foul. Many officials don't. But by rule, it's a foul on the defense.

[WyMike]

A1 drives to the goal for a jumpshot from the baseline and jumps forward just outside the key with the ball outstretched for the try. B1 anticipates A1's drive and moves across the lane and also jumps to block A1's try attempt. Both A1 and B1 leave the floor simultaneously and are airborne moving towards each other. Contact is made at the midway point between the two players at the heights of their jumps and the try is successful. No call or call on whom?

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by zanzibar
I have 2 similar cases.
Case 1: B1 is running out to defend the jump shot. B1 is going "nearly" straight at the shooter A1. B1 jumps about 5 feet forward to contest the shot but clearly is going past the shooter without contact. B1 does jump first. The shooter jumps sideways and creates contact. Who is the foul on?

Case 2: Similar case. B1 is running out to defend the jump shot. This time B1 does not take a path beside the shooter, but is going straight at the shooter. B1 has body control when he jumps to contest the shot. B1's body is going to stop about a foot before he gets to the shooter. B1 is clearly not going to make contact with A1 the shooter if A1 goes straight up with the shot. If A1 jumps forward into B1, who is the foul on?

Summation:
It seems to me that an airborne player can not change his path or to backup, therefore it should be a foul on the shooter in these cases. I hear other opinions. Help would be appreciated.

Jumping first does not matter here.

If B1 runs out to defend, hits the spot with both feet on the floor facing A1, then jumps, and does that BEFORE A1 leaves the floor it is different.

You have horizontality by B1, not verticality in your descriptions.

Anytime a defender jumps or moves toward a shooter they put themselves at risk.



[Edited by blindzebra on Jan 19th, 2005 at 03:35 PM]

[lrpalmer3]

One of the better threads I've seen on this board. Made my think.

I agree that the defender puts himself at a disadvantage when he leaves the floor. I'd hate to call the foul in these cases, but wouldn't hesitate.

[cmathews]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
Everybody has been quick here to say this foul is on the defense. I am going to say HOLD ON! not quite so fast..

Lets go back to our basketball fundamentals. If the defense has jumped first which both at least the first play says and implies in the second. (yes, over committed) He is entitled to the spot on the floor. This is no different than when a defender takes away the landing spot for the offensive shooter. If the landing spot is taken away by the offense then it is a foul on the offensive player.

Why would we let an offensive player commit a foul, that we would clearly call on the defense if the roles were reversed?

Play 1 defense jumps FIRST and will go to side of player and Offense jumps into an airborne defender. I cant see how you would ever call this on the defense... No call a minimum... but offense takes away landing spot by causing contact, jumps into path to draw foul, initiates the contact, and we want to penalize the defender, PC foul may be a harder sell but I think the rules require it.

This is a very good point.....

[LarryS]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
Everybody has been quick here to say this foul is on the defense. I am going to say HOLD ON! not quite so fast..

Lets go back to our basketball fundamentals. If the defense has jumped first which both at least the first play says and implies in the second. (yes, over committed) He is entitled to the spot on the floor. This is no different than when a defender takes away the landing spot for the offensive shooter. If the landing spot is taken away by the offense then it is a foul on the offensive player.

Why would we let an offensive player commit a foul, that we would clearly call on the defense if the roles were reversed?

Play 1 defense jumps FIRST and will go to side of player and Offense jumps into an airborne defender. I cant see how you would ever call this on the defense... No call a minimum... but offense takes away landing spot by causing contact, jumps into path to draw foul, initiates the contact, and we want to penalize the defender, PC foul may be a harder sell but I think the rules require it.

I have to agree with this position in Play 1. If it is clear that B1's path will take him pass A1 without contact, and A1 jumps INTO his path I have nothing or a player control foul on A1 (probably nothing).

Now...in Play 2, I have a foul on B1. If B1 complains...I just quote my boss "Sucks to be you."

Ok...probably wouldn't say that to B1...but I would think it.

[Smitty]

Originally posted by blindzebra

Jumping first does not matter here.

If B1 runs out to defend, hits the spot with both feet on the floor facing A1, then jumps, and does that BEFORE A1 leaves the floor it is different.

You have horizontality by B1, not verticality in your descriptions.

Anytime a defender jumps or moves toward a shooter they put themselves at risk.



[Edited by blindzebra on Jan 19th, 2005 at 03:35 PM]

I'm with you - a defender gets verticality, but not horizontality (is that a word?). If the defender is is moving horizontally into the path of a shooter, it's a block every time.

[Kelvin green]

Originally posted by Smitty

I'm with you - a defender gets verticality, but not horizontality (is that a word?). If the defender is is moving horizontally into the path of a shooter, it's a block every time.

Jumping First does not matter? What?

A Player is entitled to jump and is entitled to a spot to come down unless that spot was occupied at the time of the jump. If a player jumps and a player (dont care if it is offensive or defensive takes away the landing spot you have a foul) We call thi on the defense all the time! An offensive player with the ball jumps toward basket and then a defensive player jumps in, slides in, bumps we calla foul. In this play the tides are reversed and why would the fundamantals of the game change.

By the logic posed here a defensive player jumps, a player with the ball can take away any landing spot, can undercut, can do anything because the defender is not jumping vertical. There is no way this position can be defended by rule.

Even in case 2 the player jumps, the case states that the player will be short by a foot and then A jumps to draw a foul. If this is the case as defined the spot for the player to come down was established the moment he jumped. It was unoccupied space on the floor and now A jumps up and into this space and took away the defense's landing spot. Call this on the defense and you then better not call a foul when this happens the other way, but you will when A jumps first!

I will repeat fundamentals. Everyone is entitled to a space on floor. Anone who jumps is entiteled to a landing space, the landing space is determined when player jumps. As long as a player was not in landing spot at time of jump there cannot be a foul on player who jumped.