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  #46 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 17, 2018, 07:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Raymond, if the L2Ms are inconsistent, I won't rely on them. What I can rely on is what is written in the rulebook and casebook, and either of those would say that hanging on the rim is illegal, if not a part of a basketball play or done to avoid an injury. Hanging on the rim for 9 seconds after a dunk is clearly excessive, as there is ample time for players to clear the area under the basket, and there is no further basketball play that a player can accomplish by hanging on the rim once a dunk attempt is complete. The consequence for violating the rule against hanging on the rim is a technical foul charged to the offender, so case closed.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old Sun Nov 18, 2018, 08:05am
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Bueller, Bueller?

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  #48 (permalink)  
Old Sun Nov 18, 2018, 10:34am
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I've seen players grab the rim and pull themselves up as a pre game routine in the NBA (just before the tip off). If the league wants players to stop doing that I'm sure they'll let them know.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old Sun Nov 18, 2018, 03:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Bueller, Bueller?

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I've checked the NBA Rulebook, and Rule 12-IV-a says that "an offensive player who deliberately hangs on his basket ring, net backboard, or support during the game shall be assessed a non-unsportsmanlike technical foul". Thus, if LeBron James (an offensive player) deliberately hangs on his ring, by rule, I am correctly adjudicating the play if I assess him a non-unsportsmanlike technical foul. I don't understand how a player can accidentally hang on his ring for 9 seconds after a dunk attempt.

Last edited by ilyazhito; Sun Nov 18, 2018 at 03:28pm.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old Sun Nov 18, 2018, 05:40pm
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Lots Of Exceptions ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
NBA Rulebook Rule 12-IV-a says that an offensive player who deliberately hangs on his basket ring, net, backboard, or support during the game shall be assessed a non-unsportsmanlike technical foul ...
a) unless it's after a timeout is called.
b) unless players have cleared the area under the rim.
c) unless the ball is dead.
d) unless the player is not taunting opponents.
e) unless the player is not delaying the game.
f) unless the hang time exceeds ten seconds.
g) unless the player is LeBron James.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Nov 19, 2018 at 11:15am.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old Sun Nov 18, 2018, 07:12pm
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Hanging to prevent injury is explicitly mentioned as legal in an exception, but none of the other scenarios are listed in the rulebook. Therefore, I could only apply the injury exception, which is not applicable here.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old Sun Nov 18, 2018, 08:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
I've checked the NBA Rulebook, and Rule 12-IV-a says that "an offensive player who deliberately hangs on his basket ring, net backboard, or support during the game shall be assessed a non-unsportsmanlike technical foul". Thus, if LeBron James (an offensive player) deliberately hangs on his ring, by rule, I am correctly adjudicating the play if I assess him a non-unsportsmanlike technical foul. I don't understand how a player can accidentally hang on his ring for 9 seconds after a dunk attempt.
After the ball went through the net he was no longer an offensive player.

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  #53 (permalink)  
Old Sun Nov 18, 2018, 10:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
After the ball went through the net he was no longer an offensive player.

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The next section of Rule 12-IV states that a defensive player may not deliberately hang on the ring, so if LeBron ceased to be an offensive player, then he must have become a defensive player, as his team was no longer in control of the ball, and the other team received the ball at their disposal during the 9 seconds that LeBron James was on the ring (the other team gains control when the ball is at their disposal for the subsequent throw-in). Thus, this loophole doesn't make sense, either. If the NBA can rules lawyer their way out of giving LeBron a non-unsportsmanlike technical foul for hanging on the ring, and use this rules lawyering as justification for their decision not to assess this foul, I can do the same to argue that LeBron should be treated no differently than any other player in the league, and that he should be assessed a non-unsportsmanlike technical foul, especially when this technical foul does not lead to an ejection.
/
What is the consequence for calling such an infraction, when all that will happen is 1 free throw and the ball being put back at the point of interruption? It's not like HS, where technical fouls are 2 free throws and possession at the division line (a possible 5-point swing).
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old Sun Nov 18, 2018, 10:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
The next section of Rule 12-IV states that a defensive player may not deliberately hang on the ring, so if LeBron ceased to be an offensive player, then he must have become a defensive player, as his team was no longer in control of the ball, and the other team received the ball at their disposal during the 9 seconds that LeBron James was on the ring (the other team gains control when the ball is at their disposal for the subsequent throw-in). Thus, this loophole doesn't make sense, either. If the NBA can rules lawyer their way out of giving LeBron a non-unsportsmanlike technical foul for hanging on the ring, and use this rules lawyering as justification for their decision not to assess this foul, I can do the same to argue that LeBron should be treated no differently than any other player in the league, and that he should be assessed a non-unsportsmanlike technical foul, especially when this technical foul does not lead to an ejection.
/
What is the consequence for calling such an infraction, when all that will happen is 1 free throw and the ball being put back at the point of interruption? It's not like HS, where technical fouls are 2 free throws and possession at the division line (a possible 5-point swing).
The ball bounced out towards midcourt and a timeout was called. The ball was never at anybody's disposal. The ball was dead and a timeout was called.

Now find the rule that states an NBA player can't hang on the rim during a dead ball or during intermission or during pregame.

And if you do make it to the NBA that philosophy of officiating you have right there will be squelched or you'll be back to doing college ball after a year.

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  #55 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 19, 2018, 09:26am
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Well, Joe DeRosa went backwards and was successful in both the NBA and at the D1 level. Was there a reason that he went backwards after 22 years?

Unless a player is injured, bleeding, or loses a contact lens/glasses, timeout can only be called by a player or head coach of the team in control. How could timeout have been called if the ball was bouncing around to midcourt in nobody's possession?

My head explodes at the thought that dead ball = not during the game. According to the NFHS and NCAA rulebooks, during the game is any time from the initial jump ball to when the officials leave the visual confines of the playing area, including dead ball periods, when the officials have jurisdiction. Unless the NBA has a radically different definition of during the game, I'm not buying what the L2M said. (Head exploding)
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 19, 2018, 09:50am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Well, Joe DeRosa went backwards and was successful in both the NBA and at the D1 level. Was there a reason that he went backwards after 22 years?

Unless a player is injured, bleeding, or loses a contact lens/glasses, timeout can only be called by a player or head coach of the team in control. How could timeout have been called if the ball was bouncing around to midcourt in nobody's possession?

My head explodes at the thought that dead ball = not during the game. According to the NFHS and NCAA rulebooks, during the game is any time from the initial jump ball to when the officials leave the visual confines of the playing area, including dead ball periods, when the officials have jurisdiction. Unless the NBA has a radically different definition of during the game, I'm not buying what the L2M said. (Head exploding)
So now you are telling us that after a made basket you have never seen the opponent call an immediate time out? Seriously? You are going to F' up a game with this "I know better" mentality you currently have.

How about you watch the video and see the play before bestowing your wisdom? LeBron dunked the ball, the ball hit his leg and bounced almost to the division line, and while this was happening the Atlanta Hawks called a time-out.

Also, no cares if your buying or not buying the L2M report, other than it shows that you are on course to the "yeah but" guy.

And I'm still waiting for Bucky to produce this conflicting L2M report he was talking about.
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Last edited by Raymond; Mon Nov 19, 2018 at 09:54am.
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 19, 2018, 10:01am
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A classic "yeah, but" official. Bet you're a joy to clinicians at camps.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 19, 2018, 12:48pm
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Dead Ball ...

"After the made dunk shot, James (LAL) remains on the rim after the timeout is called and players have cleared the area under the rim. The ball is dead and he is not taunting opponents or delaying the game."

Because I'm not familiar with the interpretation of NBA rules, I concede that the references to the timeout being called, the players clearing the area under the rim, the not taunting opponents, and the not delaying the game, may all be valid NBA interpretations for not charging a technical foul.

That being said, I'm having problems wrapping my head around the dead ball reference. I agree that the ball is dead. But do not all ring grasps following a successful dunk, illegally prolonged, or otherwise legal, occur during the dead ball period immediately following a successful goal? I understand how the ring grasp can occur during a live ball due to an unsuccessful dunk (ball clangs off of the ring), but how can one not have a dead ball immediately after every successful dunk?

Why did the L2M Report interpretation include that the ball was dead? What's the importance of that statement? Conceding that everything else in the Report my be a valid NBA interpretation, I'm having trouble understanding the logic (not the necessarily the interpretation) of the dead ball statement. I agree that the ball is indeed dead, but why is the dead ball comment pertinent to the no technical foul interpretation?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Nov 19, 2018 at 12:57pm.
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 19, 2018, 01:14pm
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Live Ball ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Why did the L2M Report interpretation include that the ball was dead? What's the importance of that statement? Conceding that everything else in the Report my be a valid NBA interpretation, I'm having trouble understanding the logic (not the necessarily the interpretation) of the dead ball statement. I agree that the ball is indeed dead, but why is the dead ball comment pertinent to the no technical foul interpretation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Now find the rule that states an NBA player can't hang on the rim during a dead ball
Maybe that's my answer (above)? But wouldn't that mean that an NBA player is allowed to hang on them ring for a prolonged period of time after every single successful dunk, since every single successful dunk is immediately followed by a dead ball period? Maybe that's the NBA rule? Maybe NBA players are only charged with technical fouls for hanging on the ring for a prolonged period of time during live ball situations, like an unsuccessful dunk attempt?
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 19, 2018, 01:17pm
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Quote:
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Maybe that's my answer (above)? But wouldn't that mean that an NBA player is allowed to hang on them ring for a prolonged period of time after every single successful dunk, since every single successful dunk is immediately followed by a dead ball period? Maybe that's the NBA rule? Maybe NBA players are only charged with technical fouls for hanging on the ring for a prolonged period of time during live ball situations, like an unsuccessful dunk attempt?
Or after the ball becomes live again which it never did in this situation

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