thoughts on upspoken rules

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by thedewed

so is it accurate to say that an arm bar can't be used in the post at the high school level right now, but it can in college?

It is actually not that simple. You cannot extend an arm onto a player at either level. College allows a more liberal use of the arm bar specifically in the post (a defined area) and outside of that there are more restrictions.

Originally Posted by thedewed

that hand on hand on the ball issue needs to be cleaned up in the college book and wherever else. not only on the rebound example, but a reach in, the the defender gets hand strictly on ball, but is the impetus for the ball to come out of the offense's hands, without technically touching the ball, the call everyone has always made is out on the 'stripper', rather than a foul or out on the player holding the ball.

Cleaned up why? The rule is clear. Contact with the hand while in contact with the ball is not illegal. The wrist, that is different.

NCAA Rule: 10-1-2

Art. 2. A player shall not contact an opponent with his hand unless such contact is only with the opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental to an attempt to play the ball.

Originally Posted by thedewed

going to review and having the technical issue then forces officials, worried that review will overturn, to instead call a foul. why not spell it out in the book? while not a foul in that example, ball still goes to the offense, is the way the game has always been called and the better handling of that situation.

I have no idea what this means.

Peace

[thedewed]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is actually not that simple. You cannot extend an arm onto a player at either level. College allows a more liberal use of the arm bar specifically in the post (a defined area) and outside of that there are more restrictions.



Cleaned up why? The rule is clear. Contact with the hand while in contact with the ball is not illegal. The wrist, that is different.





I have no idea what this means.

Peace

what it means is that every time a defender reaches in and gets the hand of the player holding the ball, and the ball gets the force of the action as well, the official sees the ball go the direction of the force, and calls it out on the defender. that's the way the game is called. if review shows that in actuality the defenders hand hit the hand of the offensive player, and let's face it, much of the time they don't get ball, they get hand, if the result when the play is reviewed is to give the ball to the defense, that is contrary to the way the game has always been called. the rules shouldn't be silent on that play, it should clarify that, while not a foul, the ball should be considered out on the defense in that situation, even though they didn't technically touch the ball.

it's common sense. that hand action is quick enough anyway that the best evidence for the official is the action of the ball after the defensive contact. if the ball action is perfectly consistent with the direction of the force from the defensive player, you give the ball to the offense. if it isn't, e.g. the ball pops up when the reach was down, it's evidence that the defender caught wrist rather than the ball OR the hand on the ball. the rulebook should endeavor to describe calling the game as it is actually called. I'm not submitting a rule change, I'm just spit balling.

so back to the arm bar, in the post a defender can use an arm bar, but can't displace the offensive player? I'm glad that is allowed, because defending the post is awkward without it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by thedewed

what it means is that every time a defender reaches in and gets the hand of the player holding the ball, and the ball gets the force of the action as well, the official sees the ball go the direction of the force, and calls it out on the defender. that's the way the game is called. if review shows that in actuality the defenders hand hit the hand of the offensive player, and let's face it, much of the time they don't get ball, they get hand, if the result when the play is reviewed is to give the ball to the defense, that is contrary to the way the game has always been called. the rules shouldn't be silent on that play, it should clarify that, while not a foul, the ball should be considered out on the defense in that situation, even though they didn't technically touch the ball.

Mostly what you are saying is anecdotal. I get that this bothers you but the rule is clear. No one is having this as an issue from all accounts. I do not see coaches talk about this (which is mostly who is on the NCAA Committee) or on the NF committee with administrators. Never seen this as a POE.

Now if this is an issue, they do surveys every year and take proposals for new rules (as Bob quickly stated).

Originally Posted by thedewed

it's common sense. that hand action is quick enough anyway that the best evidence for the official is the action of the ball after the defensive contact. if the ball action is perfectly consistent with the direction of the force from the defensive player, you give the ball to the offense. if it isn't, e.g. the ball pops up when the reach was down, it's evidence that the defender caught wrist rather than the ball OR the hand on the ball. the rulebook should endeavor to describe calling the game as it is actually called. I'm not submitting a rule change, I'm just spit balling.

Clearly. I doubt many people see this as a problem. I do not see this as a problem. Never heard another official talk about this as a problem at the NCAA level. I do not see enough plays either in my games or video where this is an issue. Also reaching is not a foul.

Originally Posted by thedewed

so back to the arm bar, in the post a defender can use an arm bar, but can't displace the offensive player? I'm glad that is allowed, because defending the post is awkward without it.

The post distinct applies to both offense and defense and an arm bar can be used to keep the player away from their body until the ball comes. When the ball comes they must get hands off for the most part. And the arm bar can only be in the back, not the side or the front of the body of the opponent.

Peace