For your thoughts

[eventnyc]

An interesting situation was brought up at our local association meeting by our interpreter. Boys High School Game. Seven players, properly equipped, dressed and in the scorebook. During the game, one of the players fouls out. Official notifies the head coach and gives him his thirty seconds to replace the player. Coach tells the official that he will play with four players because the other two players are on "disciplinary probation" and he is not going to allow them to play. What do you do? I'll wait for a few posts to get your comments and then explain how our interpreter suggests we handle the situation. Back up your responses with the rule book!

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by eventnyc
An interesting situation was brought up at our local association meeting by our interpreter. Boys High School Game. Seven players, properly equipped, dressed and in the scorebook. During the game, one of the players fouls out. Official notifies the head coach and gives him his thirty seconds to replace the player. Coach tells the official that he will play with four players because the other two players are on "disciplinary probation" and he is not going to allow them to play. What do you do? I'll wait for a few posts to get your comments and then explain how our interpreter suggests we handle the situation. Back up your responses with the rule book!

Nope. Either send those two guys to the locker room or get one of them out here.

To quote from 3.1.1: "Team B must have five players participating as long as it has that number available."

[daves]

I agree with Mr. Dexter. If they're legally dressed and in the book they have to play. If they are on probation than don't let them dress down for the game.

[kevin]

If the coach tells me the other two players are injured then I would be inclined to let them stay on the bench. I would not put my crew in any danger of a lawsuit over something like this. But they would certainly not play later in the game if the coach feels like the team needs them.

Once you decide they are not available, that's it. If they have five players, they must play.

[crew]

if the team had 7 players that are legal to play then he must put one in. if he said he did not want to play them that is fine he will have a penalty against him for not properly substituting. assess 1 technical foul.
the rationale for 1 tech-to make a change in the book the penalty is one tech and then further changes can be made without penalty. (just erase names from book)

[RX Ref]

Team has 6 players- one is a JV player dressed for varsity. In Ohio, players are allowed 5 quarters total per night. The JV player has to go in after an injury in the 1st and the 2nd quarter. If he has to come in again in the 2nd half, is that my responsibilty to know he has used all his quarters?? By the way, the 6 player team is losing by 52 points at half-time......

[devdog69]

We also had this discussion at our meeting, and as I remember we really had no good solution. I like crews idea, give one T and erase names from the book.

[Slider]

The intent of the rules, IMO, is that at the beginning of the game, the coach submits a roster of all eligible players. If he did not intend for these two to play, they should not have been on the roster, nor should they have been dressed to play.

So, I assess the T is he doesn't allow one of those two eligible players in (3.1.1 also S&I 5-4-1). If he refuses again, forfeit the game.

[Edited by Slider on Feb 3rd, 2002 at 10:15 AM]

[eventnyc]

The rule book backs you up on this one: Team B must have five players participating as long as it has that number available. Several members in their posts touched on what was brought up by our interpreter. If they are in the book, they are eligible to play. Disciplinary probation doesn't mean anything to us as officials. If they are on probation, they shouldn't be dressed or in the book. That makes them ineligible. Our interpreter was very concerned about liability issues. If we did not allow them to play and someone got hurt on the floor (possibly overplaying to compensate for a shortage of players) we could be liable for allowing the situation to arise in the first place. If the coach insists his players are not coming out onto the floor, suspend the game and let the powers that be handle the situation. Injuries are a totally different situation where once again the rule book backs us up. They can play with less than five after starting a game with at least five. The rule book backs us up! Use it and abide be it and stay out of trouble. Anything else that you do may get you into hot water. Thanks for your thoughts.


[Edited by eventnyc on Feb 3rd, 2002 at 11:38 AM]

[rocky]

guys i think you are over-thinking this one. Remember this is a high school basketball game and that is their team sitting there. if they have two sitting there unable to play you are not going to send them to the locker room-- what idiot does that. If it is in the fourth quarter they may be out of quarters-- they can still sit there. Good grief guys your arent God let them sit there and watch the game. If the coach wants them to sit there that is his call. Last time i checked officials are calling the game , if those two dont say a word they arent your concern.----lighten up a little

RELAX

[Slider]

Originally posted by rocky If the coach wants them to sit there that is his call.

No one here wants to ban them; we want the coach to make a good faith attempt to give us an accurate roster. We don't want him to dress ineligible players.

If he has eligble, in the score-book, dressed players on the bench: they MUST come in.

[brettm]

We had a similar situation last week during a JV game. Team A had 7 players on the roster and 2 fouled out. The coach claimed that his one remaining player had used his 3 quarters and was dressing varsity that night and must sit out. Since they are unable to play more than 4 quarters in one night, we allowed them to complete the game with 4 players.

[Slider]

Originally posted by brettm
We had a similar situation last week during a JV game. Team A had 7 players on the roster and 2 fouled out. The coach claimed that his one remaining player had used his 3 quarters and was dressing varsity that night and must sit out. Since they are unable to play more than 4 quarters in one night, we allowed them to complete the game with 4 players.

And, I would say that his game mismangement plus bad coaching (too many fouls) is not my problem. Send the guy in or get T. Refuse again, forfeit.

[Actually, I would let him know the potential consequences of his action (forfeiture). And, I may give one chance to his replacement to make the correct decision.]

[Edited by Slider on Feb 3rd, 2002 at 05:04 PM]

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by rocky
guys i think you are over-thinking this one. Remember this is a high school basketball game and that is their team sitting there. if they have two sitting there unable to play you are not going to send them to the locker room-- what idiot does that. If it is in the fourth quarter they may be out of quarters-- they can still sit there. Good grief guys your arent God let them sit there and watch the game. If the coach wants them to sit there that is his call. Last time i checked officials are calling the game , if those two dont say a word they arent your concern.----lighten up a little

RELAX

Rocky - if the coach wants them to be able to hear his comments at timeouts and during the game, but also designates them as ineligible, he can let them sit in the row directly behind the bench, let them get closer for huddles and still not have them dressed and in the book.

Actually, they could still be dressed and sit behind the bench as long as they were not in the book and it would still be OK with me.

I think that if a coach knows ahead of time for any reason that players are not eligible to play for whatever reason, he shouldn't put them in the book and have them on the bench, dressed.

What was his point, anyway, about doing that? It makes no sense whatsoever, especially having them in the book.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by eventnyc
An interesting situation was brought up at our local association meeting by our interpreter. Boys High School Game. Seven players, properly equipped, dressed and in the scorebook. During the game, one of the players fouls out. Official notifies the head coach and gives him his thirty seconds to replace the player. Coach tells the official that he will play with four players because the other two players are on "disciplinary probation" and he is not going to allow them to play. What do you do? I'll wait for a few posts to get your comments and then explain how our interpreter suggests we handle the situation. Back up your responses with the rule book!

I am repeating a few things that have already been said, none-the-less, under both NFHS and NCAA rules, but I will confine my remarks to NFHS Rules. Head Coach A has thirty seconds to replace A5 with either A6 or A7.

If the Head Coach A had originally stated that both A6 and A1 had become injured or sick during the course of the game, the Officials would have no choice but to err on the side of safety and let Team A continue the game with only four players. If at some later time in the game, A6 or A7 recover from their injury or illness, they can enter the game at the appropriate time.

But the Head Coach A, showing his infinite knowlege of the rules of basketball, told the Officials that A6 and A7 were on "disciplinary probation." Sorry Head Coach A, you lose, replace A5 with A6 or A7 within thirty seconds or received a technical foul (NFHS R10-S5-A1d). If Head Coach A still refuses to replace A5, he is in serious jeopardy of receiving a second technical foul (and a free all expenses paid trip to the locker room. At this point Assistant Coach A takes over as Head Coach A, and I assure you that he will replace A5 with A6 or A7 immediately.

Know let me address the OhioHSAA oddity. H.S. varsity and jr. varsity teams are limited to twenty regular season games. H.S. freshmen teams are limited to twenty games (regular season and tournament combined).

Years ago, a H.S. player was limited to twenty regular season games in a season and no more than four quarters in a day. This means that a player could play in a freshmen, jr. varsity, and varsity game in the same day as long as he/she plays no more that four quarters, and the Rules definition of an overtime period being an extension of the four quarter was strictly adhered to. If a player played in the first quarter of the freshmen game, the fourth quarter and any of the overtime periods of the jr. varsity game and the second and third quarters of the varsity game, he was done for the night. If the player played in the fourth quarter instead of the third quarter of the varsity game, the player could play in any overtime periods of the varsity game. If a player played in five quarters in a day, he was deemed to have played in two games in one day and was thus ineligible to play in postseason games and sill limited to only twenty games in a regular season.

When it was discovered that a player was playing in his/her fifth quarter of the day, he/she was immediately charged with a flagrant technical foul (NFHS R10-S3-A2).

Later the OhioHSAA changed the rules to eighty quarters in a regular season and a player could play in five quarters in a day, with overtime periods in the freshmen and jr. varsity games considered an extension of the fourth quarter of that game, and here is the kicker, the overtime periods of the varsity game are considered an extension of the player's fifth quarter of the day. Meaning a player could have played in the fourth quarter and overtime periods of the freshmen game, second and third quarters of the jr. varsity game, and the first and second quarters of the varsity game, and if the varsity game goes into overtime, the player can play in the overtime periods. If a player plays in a sixth quarter, he/she is charged with a flagrant technical foul (NFHS R10-S3-A2), the sixth quarter counts toward his eighty for the regular season (he/she still remains eligible for post-season play). If this is the player's first disqualification via flagrant foul of the season, the player is in eligible for further competition at any level until his school has played two games at the level of play at with the player was ejected. (If a player who is a freshmen receives a flagrant foul while playing in a varsity game and before the varsity team plays two games the school plays in four freshmen games and three jr. varsity games, he cannot play at any level until the varsity team plays two games.) If it is the player's second flagrant foul of the season, the player is done for the season, including post-season play.

I do not have a problem with the five quarters in a day rule, I would prefer that the definition of the extension of the fourth quarter via overtime be strictly adhered to like the OhioHSAA did in the past.