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Old Mon Sep 10, 2018, 08:41am
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thoughts on upspoken rules

I don't officiate anymore but still play pickup and some rules have come up, and it got me to look at the current book and do some thinking.

First of all, I didn't realize that the forearm in the back arm bar is essentially allowed in postplay, I read if not displacing and is met with similar resistance. That is great, when did that addition get made? I think they tried to remove it, but playing w/o an armbar in the post is awkward and not a realistic view of how defense has to be able to play.

The hand part of the ball language also seems to include when shooting? I take that to mean if hitting the ball coming from behind and catch the hand while on the ball, hitting it forward, it's not a foul. Surely any contact on either hand from the front, prior to the shot, is a foul? And for contact after the shot, if just a tap a hand, I didn't call, but a displacement of the arm after the shot, or not being allowed to land cleanly, were fouls

Here's another interesting question. I always called a rebound tip out where an outside player hit the inside player's hand, and the inside player's hand was on the ball trying to control it, as simply out on the outside player. But you could read the rule as saying that that contact is legal because the inside player's hand is on the ball, and if the outside players hand doesn't touch the ball, could you call it out on the inside player? the third choice is calling a foul, and I wouldn't do that either. I'd give the ball to the inside player's team.

thoughts?
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Old Mon Sep 10, 2018, 08:49am
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1) It's always been there in some form or another. It was emphasized in FED when they went to the "automatic" foul of an arm bar on the BHD. Some codes used to have a limit on "points of contact" in the post, etc.

2) Correct.

3) By rule, OOB on the "inside player" -- and you see that sometimes in D-1 with replay. At the levels most of us do without replay, OOB on the "outside player" is the expected call.
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Old Mon Sep 10, 2018, 09:12am
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So I take it that the reason it is called out on the inside player with replay is because technically under the rules if there's no foul called then it is on the out on the inside player. I would think that that should be a clarification in the rules in that situation cuz it comes up quite a bit, where the outside player on a rebound is over the inside player in hits his hand while the hands on the ball, it should be out on the outside player. That sure is the fair way to call it
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Old Mon Sep 10, 2018, 04:26pm
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Hand In Contact With Ball ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedewed View Post
Surely any contact on either hand from the front, prior to the shot, is a foul?
It is legal use of hands to accidentally hit the hand of the opponent when it is in contact with the ball.

This includes holding, dribbling, passing, or even during a shot attempt.

Striking a ball handler, or a shooter, on that player's hand that is incidental to an attempt to play the ball is not a foul.

4-24-2: It is legal use of hands to reach to block or slap the ball controlled
by a dribbler or a player throwing for goal or a player holding it and accidentally
hitting the hand of the opponent when it is in contact with the ball.

10-6-2: A player shall not contact an opponent with his/her hand unless
such contact is only with the opponent’s hand while it is on the ball and is
incidental to an attempt to play the ball.


And stop calling me Shirley.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Sep 10, 2018 at 05:05pm.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 10, 2018, 04:36pm
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Post Play ...

2012-13 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
Post play. Any tactic using hands, arms or body to control the movement of an opposing player.
Examples of illegal post play.
1. Hooking by the offensive player
2. Pushing, holding or slapping an opponent
3. Dislodging an opponent by using a leg or knee to the rear of an opponent
4. Dislodging an opponent by backing them down

2015-16 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
Post Play. New information has been added to the Rule Book that addresses cleaning up post play.
It is legal for offensive and defensive players to touch when both are maintaining a legally established position.
Illegal contact on a post player is any tactic using hands or arms or just generally demonstrates rough physical
movements that allows a player on offense or defense to control the movement of an opposing player.
It is a foul and should be ruled as such when:
a. An opponent is displaced from a legally established or obtained position;
b. An arm-bar is extended and displaces an opponent;
c. A locked and/or extended elbow displaces an opponent;
d. A leg or knee is used in the rear of an opponent to hold or displace;
e. Holding, hooking, slapping, pinning or pushing the leg or body of an opponent;
f. An offensive post player “backs-down” and displaces the defender once that defender has established a legal guarding position.

2016-17 NFHS BASKETBALL POINTS OF EMPHASIS
Post Play. This was an area of improvement last year and continues to be an area of awareness and enforcement. A review of the criteria is as follows:
- An opponent is displaced from a legally established or obtained position
- An arm-bar is extended and displaces an opponent
- A locked and/or extended elbow displaces an opponent
- A leg or knee is used in the rear of an opponent to hold or displace
- Holding, hooking, slapping, pinning or pushing the leg or body of an opponent
- An offensive post player “backs-down” and displaces the defender once that defender has obtained a legal guarding position
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Old Mon Sep 10, 2018, 04:50pm
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The problem is that there are differences between high school rules and other levels on this very topic. You can use a forearm at other levels in the post like NCAA Men's and Pro/NBA Rules, but the post is defined as a specific place on the court that would have markings where that place is located. You cannot have the expectation that everyone is aware of only high school rules if you are playing with older people that might have experience with college and above. After all, this is a pickup game if I am reading this right and I am going to assume you are dealing with adults for the most part or people that are not currently playing high school ball. I am also going to assume that a pickup game does not have actual officials, so this seems like a moot point.

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Old Mon Sep 10, 2018, 06:28pm
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Hey Grandma, Whose Ball Is It ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedewed View Post
I always called a rebound tip out where an outside player hit the inside player's hand, and the inside player's hand was on the ball trying to control it, as simply out on the outside player.
Many years ago, before every grandmother in the bleachers had a cell phone that could videotape an entire game, I would rather call a close out of bounds call off the outside player (even though the ball last touched the inside player) instead of calling an "over the back" on outside player, and give the ball to the inside player's team for a throwin. Here, in my little corner of Connecticut, we all did it that way, that's the way it was done back then, pure and simple. Coaches never complained. Players almost never complained.

Today, with videotape of games showing up all over the internet, I call it exactly as I see it. Illegal advantage contact from the outside player is a pushing foul. Or, if the ball goes out off the inside player, I give the ball to the outside player's team for a throwin.

I don't need any early morning phone calls from my assignment commissioner, "Good morning BillyMac. I have a few questions about a call that you made last night. A coach just emailed me a videotape that shows ...".

Or worse, to have the video show up on the Forum, "Hey BillyMac, is that you with the black belt screwing up that easy call?".
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Sep 24, 2018 at 09:58am.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 23, 2018, 08:59am
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so is it accurate to say that an arm bar can't be used in the post at the high school level right now, but it can in college?

that hand on hand on the ball issue needs to be cleaned up in the college book and wherever else. not only on the rebound example, but a reach in, the the defender gets hand strictly on ball, but is the impetus for the ball to come out of the offense's hands, without technically touching the ball, the call everyone has always made is out on the 'stripper', rather than a foul or out on the player holding the ball. going to review and having the technical issue then forces officials, worried that review will overturn, to instead call a foul. why not spell it out in the book? while not a foul in that example, ball still goes to the offense, is the way the game has always been called and the better handling of that situation.
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Old Sun Sep 23, 2018, 09:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedewed View Post
so is it accurate to say that an arm bar can't be used in the post at the high school level right now, but it can in college?

that hand on hand on the ball issue needs to be cleaned up in the college book and wherever else.
1) No, that's not accurate.

2) Send in your rule change proposal
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 23, 2018, 09:24am
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I was just taking 1 form what JRutledge said above. I don't have a current HS book.
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Old Sun Sep 23, 2018, 09:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedewed View Post
so is it accurate to say that an arm bar can't be used in the post at the high school level right now, but it can in college?
It is actually not that simple. You cannot extend an arm onto a player at either level. College allows a more liberal use of the arm bar specifically in the post (a defined area) and outside of that there are more restrictions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedewed View Post
that hand on hand on the ball issue needs to be cleaned up in the college book and wherever else. not only on the rebound example, but a reach in, the the defender gets hand strictly on ball, but is the impetus for the ball to come out of the offense's hands, without technically touching the ball, the call everyone has always made is out on the 'stripper', rather than a foul or out on the player holding the ball.
Cleaned up why? The rule is clear. Contact with the hand while in contact with the ball is not illegal. The wrist, that is different.

Quote:
NCAA Rule: 10-1-2

Art. 2. A player shall not contact an opponent with his hand unless such contact is only with the opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental to an attempt to play the ball.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedewed View Post
going to review and having the technical issue then forces officials, worried that review will overturn, to instead call a foul. why not spell it out in the book? while not a foul in that example, ball still goes to the offense, is the way the game has always been called and the better handling of that situation.
I have no idea what this means.

Peace
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Old Sun Sep 23, 2018, 10:09am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
It is actually not that simple. You cannot extend an arm onto a player at either level. College allows a more liberal use of the arm bar specifically in the post (a defined area) and outside of that there are more restrictions.



Cleaned up why? The rule is clear. Contact with the hand while in contact with the ball is not illegal. The wrist, that is different.





I have no idea what this means.

Peace

what it means is that every time a defender reaches in and gets the hand of the player holding the ball, and the ball gets the force of the action as well, the official sees the ball go the direction of the force, and calls it out on the defender. that's the way the game is called. if review shows that in actuality the defenders hand hit the hand of the offensive player, and let's face it, much of the time they don't get ball, they get hand, if the result when the play is reviewed is to give the ball to the defense, that is contrary to the way the game has always been called. the rules shouldn't be silent on that play, it should clarify that, while not a foul, the ball should be considered out on the defense in that situation, even though they didn't technically touch the ball.

it's common sense. that hand action is quick enough anyway that the best evidence for the official is the action of the ball after the defensive contact. if the ball action is perfectly consistent with the direction of the force from the defensive player, you give the ball to the offense. if it isn't, e.g. the ball pops up when the reach was down, it's evidence that the defender caught wrist rather than the ball OR the hand on the ball. the rulebook should endeavor to describe calling the game as it is actually called. I'm not submitting a rule change, I'm just spit balling.

so back to the arm bar, in the post a defender can use an arm bar, but can't displace the offensive player? I'm glad that is allowed, because defending the post is awkward without it.
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Old Sun Sep 23, 2018, 10:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedewed View Post
what it means is that every time a defender reaches in and gets the hand of the player holding the ball, and the ball gets the force of the action as well, the official sees the ball go the direction of the force, and calls it out on the defender. that's the way the game is called. if review shows that in actuality the defenders hand hit the hand of the offensive player, and let's face it, much of the time they don't get ball, they get hand, if the result when the play is reviewed is to give the ball to the defense, that is contrary to the way the game has always been called. the rules shouldn't be silent on that play, it should clarify that, while not a foul, the ball should be considered out on the defense in that situation, even though they didn't technically touch the ball.
Mostly what you are saying is anecdotal. I get that this bothers you but the rule is clear. No one is having this as an issue from all accounts. I do not see coaches talk about this (which is mostly who is on the NCAA Committee) or on the NF committee with administrators. Never seen this as a POE.

Now if this is an issue, they do surveys every year and take proposals for new rules (as Bob quickly stated).

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedewed View Post
it's common sense. that hand action is quick enough anyway that the best evidence for the official is the action of the ball after the defensive contact. if the ball action is perfectly consistent with the direction of the force from the defensive player, you give the ball to the offense. if it isn't, e.g. the ball pops up when the reach was down, it's evidence that the defender caught wrist rather than the ball OR the hand on the ball. the rulebook should endeavor to describe calling the game as it is actually called. I'm not submitting a rule change, I'm just spit balling.
Clearly. I doubt many people see this as a problem. I do not see this as a problem. Never heard another official talk about this as a problem at the NCAA level. I do not see enough plays either in my games or video where this is an issue. Also reaching is not a foul.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedewed View Post
so back to the arm bar, in the post a defender can use an arm bar, but can't displace the offensive player? I'm glad that is allowed, because defending the post is awkward without it.
The post distinct applies to both offense and defense and an arm bar can be used to keep the player away from their body until the ball comes. When the ball comes they must get hands off for the most part. And the arm bar can only be in the back, not the side or the front of the body of the opponent.

Peace
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Old Sun Sep 23, 2018, 12:55pm
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'Nuff Said ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedewed View Post
So is it accurate to say that an arm bar can't be used in the post at the high school level right now ...
No, it's actually quite inaccurate.

The arm bar is a legal move if the post defender just uses it to hold position. The defender can use the arm bar even if the post player backs into the defender's arm bar and contact occurs. If the defender uses the arm bar to push the post player, or uses it to displace the post player, then that's a pushing foul on the defender. If the post player backs into the defender's arm bar in such way that the defender is displaced, then that may be a foul on the post player, and if the post player has the ball, it may be a player control foul.

Here's an example: Team A has possession of the ball in their frontcourt. Defensive post player B1 is using a stationary arm bar to hold his position as offensive post player A1 positions himself on the free throw lane line block. As guard A2 attempts to pass the ball to post player A1, B1 extends his arm bar and displaces A1 from his position on the block. The official charges B1 with a pushing foul. Is the official correct? Yes (2016-17 NFHS Basketball Points of Emphasis, Rule 10-7-1)

Need citations, or references? You got it.

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1024435

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedewed View Post
... that hand on hand on the ball issue needs to be cleaned up ... a reach in ... the ball to come out of the offense's hands, without technically touching the ball ... is the way the game has always been called ...
Nothing needs to be "cleaned up", and it's been called this way for a very long time, for almost forty years of officiating in my case.

It is legal use of hands to hit the hand of the opponent when it is in contact with the ball. This includes holding, dribbling, passing, or even during a shot attempt. Striking a ball handler, or a shooter, on that player's hand (in contact with the ball) that is incidental to an attempt to play the ball is not a foul.

This is only in regard to a hand in contact with the ball, not a hand not in contact with ball, not a wrist, not a forearm.

Also, reaching in is not a foul. There must be illegal contact to have a foul. The mere act of reaching in is, by itself, nothing. If illegal contact does occur, it’s probably a holding foul, an illegal use of hands foul, or a hand check foul, but it's never any type of foul to hit the hand of the opponent when it is in contact with the ball.

"Reaching in" should never be a part of any basketball official's vocabulary. We never use the phrase. Never. Ever.

Need citations, or references? You got it.

4-24-2: It is legal use of hands to reach to block or slap the ball controlled
by a dribbler or a player throwing for goal or a player holding it and accidentally
hitting the hand of the opponent when it is in contact with the ball.

10-6-2: A player shall not contact an opponent with his/her hand unless
such contact is only with the opponent’s hand while it is on the ball and is
incidental to an attempt to play the ball.


Period. 'Nuff said. End of story. Fini. Turn out the lights. You don’t have to go home, but you can’t stay here. Say goodnight, Gracie. Sayonara baby. Hasta la vista, baby. That's my thirty-eight year old story and I'm sticking to it.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Sep 23, 2018 at 05:07pm.
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Old Mon Sep 24, 2018, 05:44am
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Thanks. I understand reach isn't foul, was using shorthand. The contact on rebound, that is unfortunate because most everyone associated with the game would agree that the better result is the ball be awarded to inside player rather than out on inside player . I play enough and it happens enough that I wouldn't even go there. No one would believe that is a proper interpretation of the rules. It is a bad result. I don't think most associated with the game realize that is the way you all call it. If you quizzed players and coaches , the majority would say inside player awarded ball when outside player gets hand on inside players hand when inside players hand is on ball up top, and it goes out. Thanks though,
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