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Old Mon Sep 10, 2018, 08:41am
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thoughts on upspoken rules

I don't officiate anymore but still play pickup and some rules have come up, and it got me to look at the current book and do some thinking.

First of all, I didn't realize that the forearm in the back arm bar is essentially allowed in postplay, I read if not displacing and is met with similar resistance. That is great, when did that addition get made? I think they tried to remove it, but playing w/o an armbar in the post is awkward and not a realistic view of how defense has to be able to play.

The hand part of the ball language also seems to include when shooting? I take that to mean if hitting the ball coming from behind and catch the hand while on the ball, hitting it forward, it's not a foul. Surely any contact on either hand from the front, prior to the shot, is a foul? And for contact after the shot, if just a tap a hand, I didn't call, but a displacement of the arm after the shot, or not being allowed to land cleanly, were fouls

Here's another interesting question. I always called a rebound tip out where an outside player hit the inside player's hand, and the inside player's hand was on the ball trying to control it, as simply out on the outside player. But you could read the rule as saying that that contact is legal because the inside player's hand is on the ball, and if the outside players hand doesn't touch the ball, could you call it out on the inside player? the third choice is calling a foul, and I wouldn't do that either. I'd give the ball to the inside player's team.

thoughts?
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Old Mon Sep 10, 2018, 08:49am
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1) It's always been there in some form or another. It was emphasized in FED when they went to the "automatic" foul of an arm bar on the BHD. Some codes used to have a limit on "points of contact" in the post, etc.

2) Correct.

3) By rule, OOB on the "inside player" -- and you see that sometimes in D-1 with replay. At the levels most of us do without replay, OOB on the "outside player" is the expected call.
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Old Mon Sep 10, 2018, 09:12am
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So I take it that the reason it is called out on the inside player with replay is because technically under the rules if there's no foul called then it is on the out on the inside player. I would think that that should be a clarification in the rules in that situation cuz it comes up quite a bit, where the outside player on a rebound is over the inside player in hits his hand while the hands on the ball, it should be out on the outside player. That sure is the fair way to call it
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Old Mon Sep 10, 2018, 04:26pm
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Hand In Contact With Ball ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedewed View Post
Surely any contact on either hand from the front, prior to the shot, is a foul?
It is legal use of hands to accidentally hit the hand of the opponent when it is in contact with the ball.

This includes holding, dribbling, passing, or even during a shot attempt.

Striking a ball handler, or a shooter, on that player's hand that is incidental to an attempt to play the ball is not a foul.

4-24-2: It is legal use of hands to reach to block or slap the ball controlled
by a dribbler or a player throwing for goal or a player holding it and accidentally
hitting the hand of the opponent when it is in contact with the ball.

10-6-2: A player shall not contact an opponent with his/her hand unless
such contact is only with the opponent’s hand while it is on the ball and is
incidental to an attempt to play the ball.


And stop calling me Shirley.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Sep 10, 2018 at 05:05pm.
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Old Mon Sep 10, 2018, 04:36pm
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Post Play ...

2012-13 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
Post play. Any tactic using hands, arms or body to control the movement of an opposing player.
Examples of illegal post play.
1. Hooking by the offensive player
2. Pushing, holding or slapping an opponent
3. Dislodging an opponent by using a leg or knee to the rear of an opponent
4. Dislodging an opponent by backing them down

2015-16 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
Post Play. New information has been added to the Rule Book that addresses cleaning up post play.
It is legal for offensive and defensive players to touch when both are maintaining a legally established position.
Illegal contact on a post player is any tactic using hands or arms or just generally demonstrates rough physical
movements that allows a player on offense or defense to control the movement of an opposing player.
It is a foul and should be ruled as such when:
a. An opponent is displaced from a legally established or obtained position;
b. An arm-bar is extended and displaces an opponent;
c. A locked and/or extended elbow displaces an opponent;
d. A leg or knee is used in the rear of an opponent to hold or displace;
e. Holding, hooking, slapping, pinning or pushing the leg or body of an opponent;
f. An offensive post player “backs-down” and displaces the defender once that defender has established a legal guarding position.

2016-17 NFHS BASKETBALL POINTS OF EMPHASIS
Post Play. This was an area of improvement last year and continues to be an area of awareness and enforcement. A review of the criteria is as follows:
- An opponent is displaced from a legally established or obtained position
- An arm-bar is extended and displaces an opponent
- A locked and/or extended elbow displaces an opponent
- A leg or knee is used in the rear of an opponent to hold or displace
- Holding, hooking, slapping, pinning or pushing the leg or body of an opponent
- An offensive post player “backs-down” and displaces the defender once that defender has obtained a legal guarding position
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Old Mon Sep 10, 2018, 04:50pm
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The problem is that there are differences between high school rules and other levels on this very topic. You can use a forearm at other levels in the post like NCAA Men's and Pro/NBA Rules, but the post is defined as a specific place on the court that would have markings where that place is located. You cannot have the expectation that everyone is aware of only high school rules if you are playing with older people that might have experience with college and above. After all, this is a pickup game if I am reading this right and I am going to assume you are dealing with adults for the most part or people that are not currently playing high school ball. I am also going to assume that a pickup game does not have actual officials, so this seems like a moot point.

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Old Mon Sep 10, 2018, 06:28pm
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Hey Grandma, Whose Ball Is It ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedewed View Post
I always called a rebound tip out where an outside player hit the inside player's hand, and the inside player's hand was on the ball trying to control it, as simply out on the outside player.
Many years ago, before every grandmother in the bleachers had a cell phone that could videotape an entire game, I would rather call this close out of bounds call off the outside player (even though the ball last touched the inside player) instead of calling an "over the back" on outside player, and give the ball to the inside player's team for a throwin. Here, in my little corner of Connecticut, we all did it that way, that's the way it was done back then, pure and simple. Coaches never complained. Players almost never complained.

Today, with videotape of games showing up all over the internet, I call it exactly as I as see it. Illegal advantage contact from the outside player is a pushing foul. Or, if the ball goes out off the inside player, I give the ball to the outside player's team for a throwin.

I don't need any early morning phone calls from my assignment commissioner, "Good morning BillyMac. I have a few questions about a call that you made last night. A coach just emailed me a videotape that shows...".

Or worse, to have the video show up on the Forum, "Hey BillyMac, is that you with the black belt screwing up that easy call?".
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Sep 11, 2018 at 04:52pm.
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