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This usually comes up in NCAA where replay is used late in the game to review OOB plays. NCAA has had the opportunity to change the rule, but hasn't. (The next rules change cycle is next year.)
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Peace
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Let us get into "Good Trouble." ----------------------------------------------------------- Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010) |
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Now That's Different ...
Now I think that I fully understand your question. You're not talking about "over the back" contact, but rather some "hand to hand" contact between and inside and outside player on a rebound that ends up going out of bounds.
Situation: Inside player gets rebound, outside player, with no body to body contact, hits the hand of the inside player. The ball, only due to the hit, goes out of bounds off the inside player's hand. Interesting question, but one that is covered by existing NFHS rules, and I was unaware of any myths regarding this situation. As it's been for many years, the hand to hand contact described in this situation is totally legal. 4-24-2: It is legal use of hands to reach to block or slap the ball controlled by a dribbler or a player throwing for goal or a player holding it and accidentally hitting the hand of the opponent when it is in contact with the ball. 10-6-2: A player shall not contact an opponent with his/her hand unless such contact is only with the opponent’s hand while it is on the ball and is incidental to an attempt to play the ball. In regard to whom caused the ball to go out of bounds, that's also been a very clear ruling for many years. 7-2-1: The ball is caused to go out of bounds by the last player in bounds to touch it or be touched by it, unless the ball touches a player who is out of bounds prior to touching something out of bounds other than a player. So in the situation described above, there was no illegal hand to hand contact initiated by the outside player (and no illegal body to body contact), and the ball was last touched the inside player before going out of bounds, so the outside player's team will get the ball for a throwin. End of story. Sayonara baby. Quote:
Now, if you're talking about this play being associated with an "over the back" (short hand) situation, that may be different, the "unofficial interpretation" of that has evolved over the years (mainly due to the availability, and increased usage, of video), and may still vary from locality to locality, and from level to level. Please see my earlier post (below). https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1024440
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Sep 24, 2018 at 11:41am. |
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yes, the over the back, as you describe it, where no contact down low, outside guy gets up and hits hand on inside guy while inside guys hand is on the ball, and my understanding is now that is ball to the outside /hand hitting hand guy.
with all due respect, i think it's a matter of a high profile TV game where instant replay shows this, and they give it to the outside guy and the officials tell the coaches that if outside guy hit hand, doesn't have to hit ball, he gets the ball, this will be changed. I would be surprised if this has been spelled out to coaches by officials, because it is a ludicrous result. I would be very surprised if D1 coaches understand that interpretation, and the tweak in how officials call it precisely because of the risk that replay will be their undoing. But what do I know, although I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night. to tell the truth, I don't really understand why a replay can't result in a foul when one wasn't called on the play, rather than just out of bounds or whatever. If using replay, why not just go ahead and get it right? thanks for all your time, you obviously know the current officiating environment. |
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The General Electric College Bowl ...
Just to be 100% clear, my comments were strictly in regard to NFHS (high school) rules only. I'll have to let some of the Forum college guys give you the college version of the plays that I discussed.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) |
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Peace
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Let us get into "Good Trouble." ----------------------------------------------------------- Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010) |
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It's automatically a review in the last two minutes (?) of a game when there's any question on who might have last touched the ball
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A-hole formerly known as BNR |
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Black Or White (Michael Jackson, 1991) …
Too bad it wasn't a Holiday Inn Express.
I got a great night's sleep last night, and when I woke up this morning (looking at the right side of the grass) this was still the NFHS rule: 7-2-1: The ball is caused to go out of bounds by the last player in bounds to touch it or be touched by it, unless the ball touches a player who is out of bounds prior to touching something out of bounds other than a player. Officials, in the past, may have unofficially (wink, wink) interpreted this rule (the rule itself didn't change) differently given a situation involving a choice of calling a possible, close "over the back" foul, or giving the ball to the "wrong" team (everybody's happy, team doesn't get the ball it rightly deserves, but it also doesn't get a close "over the back" foul that it may, or may not deserve). Many officials no longer interpret this situation this way, living in the age of everything being recorded (my neighbor, across the street, just informed me that if I ever suspect that a package was stolen off my front stoop, that she's got a camera aimed in my house's general direction, and that she can check out the situation to help the police). Officials have never tweaked Rule 7-2-1 in regard to legal "hand to hand in contact with the ball contact". This, and the situation above, are not comparable situations because while "over the back" contact may be illegal in some cases, "hand to hand in contact with the ball contact" has never been illegal. It's like comparing apples to meatloaf © 2018 Raymond. It's black, or it's white, there's no gray. "Hand to hand in contact with the ball contact" is legal, and Rule 7-2-1 persists in this situation. Ball goes to the team that didn't touch it last. Period. Easy peasy lemon squeezy. The "over the back everybody's happy" situation? Well, that's another story for another time. I'll bring the s'mores.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Sep 25, 2018 at 11:59am. |
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I always preferred through the back, it displacement, rather than over the back. Shouldn't penalize athletes that can go and get it unless they actually displace someone in between. I guess I would be surprised to hear a d1 coach has actually been told, or understands, that if his inside guy goes up to gather with one hand, and someone jumps from behind him and hits his guys hand while it's on the ball, and it goes out, it's out on his guy. I'll ask someone that coaches at that level sometime. |
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A-hole formerly known as BNR |
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Over The Back ...
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From my magazine article: "Over the back", reported by an official to the table on a rebounding foul, is, in reality, probably a pushing foul. Over the back is not necessarily a foul. There must be illegal contact to have a foul. A taller player may often be able to get a rebound over a shorter player, even if the shorter player has good rebounding position. If the shorter player is displaced, then a pushing foul must be called, and this should be reported to the table as such.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) |
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I don't know about unspoken rules but I do know rules tend to be pretty straight forward.
Specifically if the ball goes out of bounds then whoever last touched the ball is responsible and the other team gets the ball. If you feel like someone gained an advantage (getting the ball back) because of contact that can be deemed a foul. Then call the foul. Because Billy Mac likes it so much likes it so much when I speak Canadian I believe their is a shinny expression that applies (fyi shinny is an informal pickup hockey game with limited gear and rules): Toques don't fall of on their own. If something happens that shouldn't because of illegal contact then that contact is not ok.
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Coach: Hey ref I'll make sure you can get out of here right after the game! Me: Thanks, but why the big rush. Coach: Oh I thought you must have a big date . . .we're not the only ones your planning on F$%&ing tonite are we! Last edited by Pantherdreams; Wed Sep 26, 2018 at 12:41pm. |
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Toques ???
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Toques? Let me whip out my Canadian-American dictionary.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Sep 26, 2018 at 01:34pm. |
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