The "FLOP"

[Pantherdreams]

Seeing the term FlOP thrown around a bunch on the boards here lately. I'm not going to get into a language thing as faking being fouled is problematic as well.

However, I'm not sure we all mean the same thing.

I would not consider the following faking be fouled:

1- Player in anticipation of contact begins to move away from the contact but contact never happens, however players movement away results in in them falling to the ground.

2- Player gets hit and chooses to absorb minimal contact by moving backwards or going to the ground.

3- Player putting hands in the air as they run through defense they feel is holding them.

4- PLayer takes off balance shot or shoots with legs kicked/splayed hoping to get contacted and the result of taking the off balance shot results in them ending up on the floor.

Actions the player takes to put themselves off balance, out of the play, or to protect themselves from percieved or real contact I am not considering as a faking being fouled.

For it to fall into the flop category no contact would have to result in a reaction that was clearly meant to indicate there was contact, OR the players reaction (verbal, physical, etc) during/after would have to indicate a desire for a foul call/intended to incite the crowd.

[Raymond]

I consider players who throw themselves to the ground after a jump shot or who snap their heads back as if they got hit to be flopping.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Seeing the term FlOP thrown around a bunch on the boards here lately. I'm not going to get into a language thing as faking being fouled is problematic as well.

However, I'm not sure we all mean the same thing.

I would not consider the following faking be fouled:

1- Player in anticipation of contact begins to move away from the contact but contact never happens, however players movement away results in in them falling to the ground.

2- Player gets hit and chooses to absorb minimal contact by moving backwards or going to the ground.

I don't understand how "a player's movement away (in ANTICIPATION of contact) results in them falling to the ground" unless they are flopping or just extremely lacking in coordination.

Also, "choosing to go the ground to absorb MINIMAL contact" also sounds like flopping to me.

But overall, I think you are overthinking this. I've seen, played, officiated, and coached enough basketball in the last 30 years to be very confident in my judgement of whether someone is flopping or not for the purpose of adjudicating fouls. This includes defenders who try to get PC fouls by feigning non existent contact or embellishing legal contact. Offensive players who do the same such as the head throw back on the dribble.

So just call the foul based on what you see. Or are we talking about issuing technicals based on the letter of the law?

Maybe I'm just confused on what's actually at issue here.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

But overall, I think you are overthinking this. I've seen, played, officiated, and coached enough basketball in the last 30 years to be very confident in my judgement of whether someone is flopping or not for the purpose of adjudicating fouls. This includes defenders who try to get PC fouls by feigning non existent contact or embellishing legal contact. Offensive players who do the same such as the head throw back on the dribble.

So just call the foul based on what you see. Or are we talking about issuing technicals based on the letter of the law?

Maybe I'm just confused on what's actually at issue here.

Agree -- the "I know it when I see it" approach works just fine for flopping too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it

[Pantherdreams]

Thanks. I am ok with i know it when i see it. I also know that I've got partners who will warn kids/coaches about flopping in situations I don't see it as flopping so just looking for some clarification.

I guess I don't see a kid is is falling away before contact or ending up on the floor because of an off balance shot or cut as doing those things to necessarily fake a foul. Judging intent is difficult, I like the idea of knowing it when I see it.

Thanks!

[Rich]

Don't you understand? It's ALWAYS flopping when an official doesn't want to put a whistle on a play and call a block.

[LRZ]

I have trouble with a flop on marginal contact, where, without the flop, I'd pass on calling it either way.

One of my assigners once said to me that when a body or bodies hit the floor on a flop, call a block and tell the defender, "That flop cost you a foul. You have four flops left." When in Rome....

[Camron Rust]

I have a hard time calling a charge when the defender goes down much harder than the contact would have caused...that is a flop. Conservation of momentum is real...a slight bump by the shooter doesn't put the defender into the 3rd row.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

For it to fall into the flop category no contact would have to result in a reaction that was clearly meant to indicate there was contact

Originally Posted by Raymond

I consider players who throw themselves to the ground after a jump shot or who snap their heads back as if they got hit to be flopping.

Originally Posted by VaTerp

defenders who try to get PC fouls by feigning non existent contact or embellishing legal contact.

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

"I know it when I see it" approach works just fine for flopping

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

I know it when i see it ... knowing it when I see it.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

the defender goes down much harder than the contact would have caused...that is a flop.

For all Forum posters who have described flopping in their own manner (some are pretty good descriptions).

When your see flopping (according to you own description) do you penalize with a technical foul?

Be honest.

Thirty-seven years of officiating, and a lot of basketball as a player, and a coach, and I have never, ever, seen, nor have I ever charged, a technical foul for "faking being fouled".

I've seen potential flopping situations adjudicated, possibly incorrectly, as blocking fouls, as no calls, and occasionally (actually rarely) observed an official warn, but have never seen a technical foul charged.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

For all Forum posters who have described flopping in their own manner.

When your see flopping (according to you own description) do you penalize with a technical foul?

Be honest.

Thirty-seven years of officiating, and a lot of basketball as a player, and a coach, and I have never, ever, seen, nor have I ever charged, a technical foul for "faking being fouled".

I've seen potential flopping situations adjudicated, possibly incorrectly, as blocking fouls, as player control fouls, or as no calls, and occasionally (actually rarely) observed an official warn, but have never seen a technical foul charged.

I have. Once.

I had a varsity boys player throw himself backwards without contact. I was *stunned* by that. Next time down the floor, I talked to the coach who didn't realize there wasn't contact *at all.* He took the player out.

Player came back in, did the same thing. Whack. Coach wasn't happy. I shrugged.

[LRZ]

MTD, BillyMac and maybe a few others might remember the 1963 Sports Illustrated article about the Celtics' Frank Ramsey, entitled "Smart Moves by a Master of Deception." In it, Ramsey described his defensive tricks, including how he flopped convincingly: http://www.si.com/vault/1963/12/09/5...r-of-deception

At the time, I studied that article religiously!

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I have a hard time calling a charge when the defender goes down much harder than the contact would have caused...that is a flop. Conservation of momentum is real...a slight bump by the shooter doesn't put the defender into the 3rd row.

This. Excellent post. Couldn't have said it better.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

When your see flopping (according to you own description) do you penalize with a technical foul?

Be honest.

Nope. I usually just laugh at them, or say something like "Come on, man" or "Dude, who are you fooling?" More often than not they smile back, as if to say, "Ok, you got me." It lightens the mood while making the point. I don't often see that same player flop again.

If I had a situation like the one Rich described, however (i.e. egregious second-time offender), I'd probably whack him, too.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Conservation of momentum is real.

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Excellent post. Couldn't have said it better.

If you liked Camron Rust's post, check out Principia, Isaac Newton, 1687, hardcover $23.51 on Amazon.

[Pantherdreams]

Up until this year I had only been in the gym for 1. My partner asked me to watch a kid who was going down every time his check ripped hard. He gave him an official warning. Middle of 3rd quarter kid bodied up to ball carrier on catch at mid court. Offense ripped high and d went down like hit by sniper. Partner T'd him up, kid stood up ha a mouth ful of blood spat some on my partners shoe. Partner tossed him. Wanted no part of it. lol

That was before this season. In our conference this year I was involved in games or witnessed games at tournaments where 5 different times it was called. Including 4 times in 1 game (all on shooters). In all of these cases it was on offensive players. I still routinely see defensive contacts where people go down and its clearly not the contacts fault but me and refs around me are just giving them the "get up signal".

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I have a hard time calling a charge when the defender goes down much harder than the contact would have caused...that is a flop. Conservation of momentum is real...a slight bump by the shooter doesn't put the defender into the 3rd row.

Conservation of Momentum for a Two Particle System: p1 = p2, where p1 = m1v1 and p2 = m2v2, therefore m1v1 = m2v2 and v2 = (m1v1)/m2.

Let m1 be greater than m2. t is time, and (t)i is t before the contact between m1 and m2. (t)f is t after the contact between m1 and m2.

From v2 = (m1v1)/m2, v2 at (t)f will be greater than v2 at (t)i. If m1 is significantly larger that m2, and at (t)i v1 is significantly larger that v2,, then v2 at (t)f can be significantly larger V2 at (t)i. Therefore, it is possible for a slight bump by Player #1 against Player #2 can send Player #2 into the third row.

MTD, Sr.