|
|||
The "FLOP"
Seeing the term FlOP thrown around a bunch on the boards here lately. I'm not going to get into a language thing as faking being fouled is problematic as well.
However, I'm not sure we all mean the same thing. I would not consider the following faking be fouled: 1- Player in anticipation of contact begins to move away from the contact but contact never happens, however players movement away results in in them falling to the ground. 2- Player gets hit and chooses to absorb minimal contact by moving backwards or going to the ground. 3- Player putting hands in the air as they run through defense they feel is holding them. 4- PLayer takes off balance shot or shoots with legs kicked/splayed hoping to get contacted and the result of taking the off balance shot results in them ending up on the floor. Actions the player takes to put themselves off balance, out of the play, or to protect themselves from percieved or real contact I am not considering as a faking being fouled. For it to fall into the flop category no contact would have to result in a reaction that was clearly meant to indicate there was contact, OR the players reaction (verbal, physical, etc) during/after would have to indicate a desire for a foul call/intended to incite the crowd.
__________________
Coach: Hey ref I'll make sure you can get out of here right after the game! Me: Thanks, but why the big rush. Coach: Oh I thought you must have a big date . . .we're not the only ones your planning on F$%&ing tonite are we! |
|
|||
I consider players who throw themselves to the ground after a jump shot or who snap their heads back as if they got hit to be flopping.
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR |
|
|||
Quote:
Also, "choosing to go the ground to absorb MINIMAL contact" also sounds like flopping to me. But overall, I think you are overthinking this. I've seen, played, officiated, and coached enough basketball in the last 30 years to be very confident in my judgement of whether someone is flopping or not for the purpose of adjudicating fouls. This includes defenders who try to get PC fouls by feigning non existent contact or embellishing legal contact. Offensive players who do the same such as the head throw back on the dribble. So just call the foul based on what you see. Or are we talking about issuing technicals based on the letter of the law? Maybe I'm just confused on what's actually at issue here. |
|
|||
Quote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it |
|
|||
Thanks. I am ok with i know it when i see it. I also know that I've got partners who will warn kids/coaches about flopping in situations I don't see it as flopping so just looking for some clarification.
I guess I don't see a kid is is falling away before contact or ending up on the floor because of an off balance shot or cut as doing those things to necessarily fake a foul. Judging intent is difficult, I like the idea of knowing it when I see it. Thanks!
__________________
Coach: Hey ref I'll make sure you can get out of here right after the game! Me: Thanks, but why the big rush. Coach: Oh I thought you must have a big date . . .we're not the only ones your planning on F$%&ing tonite are we! |
|
|||
I have trouble with a flop on marginal contact, where, without the flop, I'd pass on calling it either way.
One of my assigners once said to me that when a body or bodies hit the floor on a flop, call a block and tell the defender, "That flop cost you a foul. You have four flops left." When in Rome.... |
|
|||
I have a hard time calling a charge when the defender goes down much harder than the contact would have caused...that is a flop. Conservation of momentum is real...a slight bump by the shooter doesn't put the defender into the 3rd row.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association |
|
|||||
Pogo (By Walt Kelly) ...
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
When your see flopping (according to you own description) do you penalize with a technical foul? Be honest. Thirty-seven years of officiating, and a lot of basketball as a player, and a coach, and I have never, ever, seen, nor have I ever charged, a technical foul for "faking being fouled". I've seen potential flopping situations adjudicated, possibly incorrectly, as blocking fouls, as no calls, and occasionally (actually rarely) observed an official warn, but have never seen a technical foul charged.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Mar 16, 2018 at 05:11pm. |
|
|||
Speaking of Flops....
MTD, BillyMac and maybe a few others might remember the 1963 Sports Illustrated article about the Celtics' Frank Ramsey, entitled "Smart Moves by a Master of Deception." In it, Ramsey described his defensive tricks, including how he flopped convincingly: http://www.si.com/vault/1963/12/09/5...r-of-deception
At the time, I studied that article religiously! |
|
|||
Quote:
Quote:
If I had a situation like the one Rich described, however (i.e. egregious second-time offender), I'd probably whack him, too. |
|
|||
She Blinded Me With Science (Thomas Dolby, 1982) ..
If you liked Camron Rust's post, check out Principia, Isaac Newton, 1687, hardcover $23.51 on Amazon.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Mar 17, 2018 at 02:08pm. |
|
|||
Up until this year I had only been in the gym for 1. My partner asked me to watch a kid who was going down every time his check ripped hard. He gave him an official warning. Middle of 3rd quarter kid bodied up to ball carrier on catch at mid court. Offense ripped high and d went down like hit by sniper. Partner T'd him up, kid stood up ha a mouth ful of blood spat some on my partners shoe. Partner tossed him. Wanted no part of it. lol
That was before this season. In our conference this year I was involved in games or witnessed games at tournaments where 5 different times it was called. Including 4 times in 1 game (all on shooters). In all of these cases it was on offensive players. I still routinely see defensive contacts where people go down and its clearly not the contacts fault but me and refs around me are just giving them the "get up signal".
__________________
Coach: Hey ref I'll make sure you can get out of here right after the game! Me: Thanks, but why the big rush. Coach: Oh I thought you must have a big date . . .we're not the only ones your planning on F$%&ing tonite are we! |
|
|||
Quote:
Conservation of Momentum for a Two Particle System: p1 = p2, where p1 = m1v1 and p2 = m2v2, therefore m1v1 = m2v2 and v2 = (m1v1)/m2. Let m1 be greater than m2. t is time, and (t)i is t before the contact between m1 and m2. (t)f is t after the contact between m1 and m2. From v2 = (m1v1)/m2, v2 at (t)f will be greater than v2 at (t)i. If m1 is significantly larger that m2, and at (t)i v1 is significantly larger that v2,, then v2 at (t)f can be significantly larger V2 at (t)i. Therefore, it is possible for a slight bump by Player #1 against Player #2 can send Player #2 into the third row. MTD, Sr.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn. Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn. Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials Ohio High School Athletic Association Toledo, Ohio |
Bookmarks |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
2016 NCAA Rule Change: OBS - "About to Receive" vs. "In the act of Catching" | teebob21 | Softball | 15 | Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:16pm |
NHSF "intentional" vs NCAA "flagarent" terminology | Duffman | Basketball | 17 | Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:15pm |
Is "the patient whistle" and "possession consequence" ruining the game? | fiasco | Basketball | 46 | Fri Dec 02, 2011 08:43am |
The "Flop" on an Upswing? | Freddy | Basketball | 38 | Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:08am |
ABC's "Nightline" examines "worst calls ever" tonight | pizanno | Basketball | 27 | Fri Jul 04, 2008 06:08am |