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Old Sat Mar 10, 2018, 08:11pm
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Quiz question

Team A has the ball for throw in with the clock stopped with .7 tenths of a second to go. A1 throws the ball inbounds and the pass is to high and goes over everyone’s head untouched and is heading out of bounds but before it touches OOB the timer starts the clock and the horn sounds. The ball then lands OOB. What is the ruling? Who gets the ball?
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Old Sat Mar 10, 2018, 08:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kda89508 View Post
Team A has the ball for throw in with the clock stopped with .7 tenths of a second to go. A1 throws the ball inbounds and the pass is to high and goes over everyone’s head untouched and is heading out of bounds but before it touches OOB the timer starts the clock and the horn sounds. The ball then lands OOB. What is the ruling? Who gets the ball?


The Clock starting incorrectly thereby causing the Horn to sound does not make the Ball become Dead. Team A committed a Throw-in Violation. The clock is reset to 0.7 seconds and Team B receives the Ball for a Designated Spot Throw-in where Team A had taken its Throw-in.

MTD, Sr.
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Old Sat Mar 10, 2018, 08:39pm
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I'm not letting a mistake by the timer benefit Team A here. If there's any doubt the ball would go OOB before being touched I may re-do the throw in and put the time back on the clock.

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Old Sat Mar 10, 2018, 08:41pm
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Thumbs up 👍

That is what happened in a tournament game yesterday and that is what they did. I was called about it yesterday and told the caller they got it correct. I love to quiz people and thought this would be a good one for this forum. Thank You! Kevin 👍
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Old Sat Mar 10, 2018, 08:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 View Post
I'm not letting a mistake by the timer benefit Team A here. If there's any doubt the ball would go OOB before being touched I may re-do the throw in and put the time back on the clock.

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BryanV21:

Why would you give the Ball back to Team A? As I stated in my first comment, the incorrect starting of the Clock and the sounding of the Horn does not stop play. Team A still committed a Throw-in Violation, the type in which the Clock would never had started.

MTD, Sr.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kda89508 View Post
That is what happened in a tournament game yesterday and that is what they did. I was called about it yesterday and told the caller they got it correct. I love to quiz people and thought this would be a good one for this forum. Thank You! Kevin 👍
kda89508: Just what did the Officials do which you thought was correct?

MTD, Sr.
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Old Sat Mar 10, 2018, 08:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
BryanV21:

Why would you give the Ball back to Team A? As I stated in my first comment, the incorrect starting of the Clock and the sounding of the Horn does not stop play. Team A still committed a Throw-in Violation, the type in which the Clock would never had started.

MTD, Sr.





kda89508: Just what did the Officials do which you thought was correct?

MTD, Sr.
The violation is for the throw in going OOB before being touched in bounds. In the OP the horn went off before the ball went OOB.

So, if it's clear the ball wasn't going to be touched then by all means give the ball to Team B. If you believe that the ball may have been touched before going OOB then there wouldn't have been a violation. Therefore you're only choice would be timer error and use point of interruption.

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EDIT: Now that I'm home and re-read the post I feel like adding this...
I agree the horn does not end the game. However, if a player was about to grab the ball before it went out of bounds, but stopped because he heard the horn, then I may feel obligated to assume a violation would have been avoided. The OP does sound like this was not something that would have happened, so chances are I'm doing just like you said and going with a throw-in violation and awarding the ball to Team B, at the stop of the violation (the original throw-in location), with .7 seconds on the clock.

Last edited by BryanV21; Sat Mar 10, 2018 at 10:19pm.
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Old Sat Mar 10, 2018, 08:57pm
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Thumbs up Got is all correct

They did exactly as you answered. They give team B the ball and put the .7 seconds back on the clock. It was in a state semifinal game.
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Old Mon Mar 12, 2018, 12:03am
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MTD,
The NFHS rules state that the ball becomes dead when the period ending horn sounds, unless a try for goal is in flight.
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Old Mon Mar 12, 2018, 12:33am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
MTD,
The NFHS rules state that the ball becomes dead when the period ending horn sounds, unless a try for goal is in flight.

NevadaRef:

Team A has the Ball for a Stopped-Clock Designated Spot Throw-in. A1 releases the Ball on a pass that crosses the Boundary Line at the Throw-in's Designated Spot. The Ball crosses another Boundary Line and goes Out-of-Bounds while never being touched by any other Player. Team A has committed a Throw-in Violation and by Rule, the Clock should not have started, but was started in error by the Timer. The Clock starting in error does not negate the Throw-in Violation by Team A. Penalize Team A for committing a Throw-in Violation by awarding Team B a Designated Spot Throw-in at the Spot of Team A's Throw-in and reset the Clock to 0.7 seconds.

The Ball becoming Dead when the Period ending Horn sounds only applies if the Clock was started correctly, and in the Play being discussed, the Clock should have never started.

MTD, Sr.
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Old Mon Mar 12, 2018, 12:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kda89508 View Post
They did exactly as you answered. They give team B the ball and put the .7 seconds back on the clock. It was in a state semifinal game.

Smart officials.

MTD, Sr.
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Old Mon Mar 12, 2018, 10:33am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
NevadaRef:

Team A has the Ball for a Stopped-Clock Designated Spot Throw-in. A1 releases the Ball on a pass that crosses the Boundary Line at the Throw-in's Designated Spot. The Ball crosses another Boundary Line and goes Out-of-Bounds while never being touched by any other Player. Team A has committed a Throw-in Violation and by Rule, the Clock should not have started, but was started in error by the Timer. The Clock starting in error does not negate the Throw-in Violation by Team A. Penalize Team A for committing a Throw-in Violation by awarding Team B a Designated Spot Throw-in at the Spot of Team A's Throw-in and reset the Clock to 0.7 seconds.

The Ball becoming Dead when the Period ending Horn sounds only applies if the Clock was started correctly, and in the Play being discussed, the Clock should have never started.

MTD, Sr.
While I understand that the clock should not have started, I don't see in my rules book where the ball doesn't become dead because it started in error.
To expand the situation, if there had been 3 seconds on the clock and the timer incorrectly started it early, then a player caught the ball inbounds which was quickly followed by the horn, we have a Case Play from only a couple of years ago for handling that. The ball becomes dead and play is halted on the horn. The officials have to adjust the clock and award a POI throw-in.

How is this play any different? What is the POI when the horn incorrectly sounds?
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Old Mon Mar 12, 2018, 02:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
While I understand that the clock should not have started, I don't see in my rules book where the ball doesn't become dead because it started in error.
To expand the situation, if there had been 3 seconds on the clock and the timer incorrectly started it early, then a player caught the ball inbounds which was quickly followed by the horn, we have a Case Play from only a couple of years ago for handling that. The ball becomes dead and play is halted on the horn. The officials have to adjust the clock and award a POI throw-in.

How is this play any different? What is the POI when the horn incorrectly sounds?
Nevada...there are times that your strict adherence to the rules borders on lunacy. This is one of those times. An erroneously sounding horn in this situation does not cause the ball to become dead. It's not a real period ending horn in the spirit of the rule you cited. The rest of us don't need a rule or case play to spell this out. It is an obvious interpretation at the outset.

Come on, man.

Edit: *IF*, in the officials' judgment, the sounding of the horn caused a player---who otherwise could have conceivably touched the ball before it went OOB untouched---to stop trying to go for the ball, then I concede your logic would more appropriately match the situation from the case play of a few years ago that you cited. But if everyone in the gym knows that the horn had no effect on the outcome of the throw-in pass, then I'm going with the throw-in violation and we're putting the 0.7 back on the clock. We get paid to make those kinds of decisions that aren't necessarily spelled out in the rule or case books.

Last edited by crosscountry55; Mon Mar 12, 2018 at 02:19pm. Reason: Giving the poor man an olive branch.
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Old Mon Mar 12, 2018, 03:27pm
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Inquiring Minds Want To Know ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
... we have a Case Play from only a couple of years ago for handling that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
... appropriately match the situation from the case play of a few years ago
Caseplay, or annual interpretation? Can we please see it?
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Old Mon Mar 12, 2018, 08:12pm
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Similar play in 5.10.1D where Team A throw in touches an official on the court and bounces across the floor and OOB. Timer allows :02 to run off the clock. Knowing there were :06 left in the game when the TI was administered, the officials could have the time reset. Most likely the ball touching the official prevented players from either team from catching the throw in pass. Unfair as that may seem, the throw in violation would stand according to 4-4-4. In that regard, I would say MTD and the officials are correct. I do have another thought on this but cannot post right now.
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Last edited by billyu2; Mon Mar 12, 2018 at 08:41pm.
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Old Mon Mar 12, 2018, 08:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billyu2 View Post
Similar play in 5.10.1D where Team A throw in touches an official on the court and bounces across the floor and OOB. Timer allows :02 to run off the clock. Knowing there were :06 left in the game when the TI was administered, the officials could have the time reset. Most likely the ball touching the official prevented players from either team from catching the throw in pass. Unfair as that may seem, the throw in violation would stand according to 4-4-4. In that regard, I would say MTD and the officials are correct. I do have another thought on this but cannot post right now.
5.10.1 SITUATION D: There are six seconds left on the clock in the fourth quarter
and the ball is out of bounds in the possession of Team A. The throw-in by A1
touches the referee on the court and then goes across the court and out of
bounds. The timer permits two seconds to run off the clock. What recourse does
the coach of either team have in such situation? RULING: Either coach may step
to the scorer’s table and request a 60-second time-out and have the referee come
to the table. The coach is permitted to do this under provisions of the coach’s
rule. The referee shall come to the sideline and confer with one or both coaches
and the timer about the matter; and if the referee has definite knowledge that
there were six seconds on the clock when the ball was awarded to Team A for the
throw-in, it is the responsibility of the referee to have the two seconds put back
on the clock. The timer and scorer and the other official(s) can be used by the
referee to gain definite information. If there is no mistake or if it cannot be
rectified, the requesting team will be charged with a 60-second time-out. (5-11-
4 Exception b; 5-8-4; 10-5-1c)
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