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Old Tue Jul 15, 2008, 03:20pm
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Question from NCAAW Quiz

Thoughts on this one? Any difference in NFHS? I'll post the NCAAW answer in a few hours.
================================
It is a traveling violation when:

a. A1 ends her dribble and jumps to shoot. While in the air, she realizes that her shot will get blocked so she voluntarily throws the ball to the playing court and is the first to touch it.
b. A1 attempts to catch the ball while running. A1 does not control the ball but tips it in the air while taking 3 steps; she then secures the ball and begins a dribble.
c. A1 attempts a try at Team As basket after her dribble has ended. The try does not touch the backboard, the ring or flange or any other player. A1 runs and catches the ball before it strikes the playing court.
d. A1, while airborne, catches the ball to prevent it from going out of bounds. She throws the ball onto the court as her momentum takes her out of bounds. She then returns inbounds and is the first to touch the ball.
e. A1 rebounds the ball and falls to the floor without ever establishing a pivot foot.
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Old Tue Jul 15, 2008, 03:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Thoughts on this one? Any difference in NFHS? I'll post the NCAAW answer in a few hours.
================================
It is a traveling violation when:

a. A1 ends her dribble and jumps to shoot. While in the air, she realizes that her shot will get blocked so she voluntarily throws the ball to the playing court and is the first to touch it.
b. A1 attempts to catch the ball while running. A1 does not control the ball but tips it in the air while taking 3 steps; she then secures the ball and begins a dribble.
c. A1 attempts a try at Team A’s basket after her dribble has ended. The try does not touch the backboard, the ring or flange or any other player. A1 runs and catches the ball before it strikes the playing court.
d. A1, while airborne, catches the ball to prevent it from going out of bounds. She throws the ball onto the court as her momentum takes her out of bounds. She then returns inbounds and is the first to touch the ball.
e. A1 rebounds the ball and falls to the floor without ever establishing a pivot foot.
Well, I know in NCAA that "e" is not a violation but in NFHS it is.
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Old Tue Jul 15, 2008, 05:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
Well, I know in NCAA that "e" is not a violation but in NFHS it is.
According to the ruling below that is correct, but I happen to disagree with the provided reasoning.

Correct Answer: A Reference: 9-6; A.R.'s 100; 103; 181; 182
Total responses: 341 % Correct: 77
COMMENTARY: Answer A is actually a double-dribble violation and not a travel since her dribble ended and she started another dribble when she voluntarily threw the ball to the floor. Although answer A is not a travel, it is the only violation in the list of options. This play was taken from A.R. 182 which is erroneously located under traveling. These two facts may be why 77% of test takers answered it correctly. Option E is not a travel since a pivot foot had never been established.
================================================== =
According to 4-68-4b the action also qualifies as a traveling violation. For the writers of the above to unequivocally state that it is not is simply foolish. The answer should be that the player has violated both the traveling and dribbling rules and that either violation could be called.

And that is exactly what the A.R. in the casebook says.
A.R. 182.
A1, after:
(1) Receiving a pass; or
(2) Ending his dribble, jumps into the air on a try for goal. A1 is
contested by B1 and since he could not get his try for goal off, he
voluntarily throws the ball to the playing court.
In both (1) and (2), A1 is the first to touch the ball.

RULING: (1) A1 has committed a violation because he did not release the
ball before picking up his pivot foot.
(2) A1’s release of the ball, after being airborne, was the start of a second
dribble. When A1 touched the ball, he committed a violation.
(Rule 9-6, 4-68.4.b and 9-7)

Does the NCAAM's game have a similar interpretation to the NCAAW on landing on one's back after grabbing the ball while airborne?







Last edited by Nevadaref; Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 05:45pm.
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Old Wed Jul 16, 2008, 07:30am
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This is what 4-68 says:

Art. 6. It is traveling when a player falls to the playing court while holding the ball without maintaining a pivot foot.

I assume the NCAA is ruling that since A1 caught the ball in the air and fell directly to the floor that there is no pivot foot to maintain therefore it is not a travel.

I see no rule or A.R. that contridicts that.

BTW, I agree completely with your interpretation of "a".

BTW #2, why are you copying me? Quiz results
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Last edited by Raymond; Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 07:45am.
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Old Wed Jul 16, 2008, 07:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
According to the ruling below that is correct, but I happen to disagree with the provided reasoning.
I seem to recall that the NCAAW later came out with something that indicated that the test was correct and the written response was incorrect (that is, it was a travelling violation)
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Old Wed Jul 16, 2008, 01:19pm
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Question

I know d is not a travel, but is it an out-of-bounds violation?
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Old Wed Jul 16, 2008, 01:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TravelinMan
I know d is not a travel, but is it an out-of-bounds violation?
No, she did not go OOB on her own "volition," her momentum carried her out. Legal play.
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Old Wed Jul 16, 2008, 01:29pm
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Thanks Snaq - good explanation - I called it right but wasn't quite sure how to explain to coach.....I've got my explanation now
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Old Wed Jul 16, 2008, 02:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Thoughts on this one? Any difference in NFHS? I'll post the NCAAW answer in a few hours.
================================
It is a traveling violation when:

a. A1 ends her dribble and jumps to shoot. While in the air, she realizes that her shot will get blocked so she voluntarily throws the ball to the playing court and is the first to touch it.
b. A1 attempts to catch the ball while running. A1 does not control the ball but tips it in the air while taking 3 steps; she then secures the ball and begins a dribble.
c. A1 attempts a try at Team As basket after her dribble has ended. The try does not touch the backboard, the ring or flange or any other player. A1 runs and catches the ball before it strikes the playing court.
d. A1, while airborne, catches the ball to prevent it from going out of bounds. She throws the ball onto the court as her momentum takes her out of bounds. She then returns inbounds and is the first to touch the ball.
e. A1 rebounds the ball and falls to the floor without ever establishing a pivot foot.

You mentioned differences in NFHS...let's see how well I know (or just THINK I know) the rules in NFHS.....
"A"...I agree, and believe it would be a "double dribble"
"B"...You've got nothing, b/c the player does not have control during the tip
and 3 steps before securing the ball.
"C"...I believe here its nothing too, b/c team control was lost during the
"try attempt"....
"D"...I believe she's ok as long as she establishes herself inbounds before
touching the ball (touching a foot in bounds). Otherwise, if she last
touched her feet "out of bounds", she would still be considered "out of
bounds" (think 3 point shot rules....leave floor behind 3pt line, its a 3pt
attempt...leave floor in front of line, its a 2pt shot).
"E"....That is a travel regardless of whether or not a pivot was established,
b/c she went to the floor after gaining posession of the ball.

Again, these are just NFHS. Are these correct? Any help would be great!
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Old Wed Jul 16, 2008, 03:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vbzebra
Again, these are just NFHS. Are these correct? Any help would be great!
Generally correct, except A is a travel.
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Old Wed Jul 16, 2008, 03:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
Generally correct, except A is a travel.
A is, at the same time, both a travel and an illegal (double) dribble.
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Old Wed Jul 16, 2008, 03:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust
A is, at the same time, both a travel and an illegal (double) dribble.
What's the signal for that?
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Old Wed Jul 16, 2008, 03:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
What's the signal for that?
It's difficult to perform, and can really only be done properly with a smiley face stuck up the azz.
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Old Wed Jul 16, 2008, 04:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
This is what 4-68 says:

Art. 6. It is traveling when a player falls to the playing court while holding the ball without maintaining a pivot foot.

I assume the NCAA is ruling that since A1 caught the ball in the air and fell directly to the floor that there is no pivot foot to maintain therefore it is not a travel.

I see no rule or A.R. that contridicts that.

BTW, I agree completely with your interpretation of "a".

BTW #2, why are you copying me? Quiz results
Sorry, I didn't know that you had already posted this. I must have been away for a few days when that happened.

I happen to believe that the NCAAW ruling that lack of an established pivot foot prevents a traveling call here is silly. I agree with the post by Snaqwells from your thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Okay, I forgot to add I disagree with this as well.

A pivot foot is not required for a travel.

1. A1 catches a pass at midcourt and proceeds to fall on his tail-end. This is a travel.

2. A1 catches the ball in the paint with both feet planted. He then jumps to shoot only to find B1 towering over him ready to block the shot. A1 returns to the floor with the ball. Travel.

Neither situation above has a pivot foot established. Who printed these answers?
Are both of these actions allowed in the NCAAW's game?

But most importantly, does anyone have a definitive answer on this play for the NCAAM's side?
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Old Wed Jul 16, 2008, 04:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Sorry, I didn't know that you had already posted this. I must have been away for a few days when that happened.

I happen to believe that the NCAAW ruling that lack of an established pivot foot prevents a traveling call here is silly. I agree with the post by Snaqwells from your thread.


Are both of these actions allowed in the NCAAW's game?

But most importantly, does anyone have a definitive answer on this play for the NCAAM's side?
Only because I'm sitting here trying to imagine a smiley face stuck up someone's a$$, let me throw in my two cents. First, isn't the very definition of Traveling (4-68-1): "Traveling occurs when a player holding the ball moves a foot or both feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits described in this rule." And, don't the prescribed limits have to do specifically with a pivot foot? So, if a pivot foot "doesn't exist", how can there be a travel?

As far as Snaq's second example re: the post player, wouldn't that be covered by Art. 2: "A player who catches the ball with both feet on the playing court may pivot, using either foot. When one foot is lifted, the other is the pivot foot." So, as in baseball, there are no ties. One foot came off the ground first, therefore the other foot is the pivot (pick one), so a pivot foot has been established, and that play would be a travel.
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