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Old Sat Feb 24, 2018, 12:56am
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Free Throw Situation - How to Handle

Had an odd one the other night.

1Q - shooting 2 FT's. I'm the T, I glance over my shoulder to see if we have a sub waiting after the first shot. I quickly realize something isn't right. The assistant coach is standing on the court with a whiteboard drawing up something for the 4 players not involved in the FT. HC is kneeling talking to a player with his back to the game. Then I realize that a student manager has brought water out to the 4 players and is also standing on the court.

I halted my partners from proceeding with the 2nd FT and said, "coach, I need you to take a seat. This isn't a timeout and we shouldn't have water on the court." At this point the head coach realizes whats happening and pops up saying, "what's a matter?" After a quick explanation, his response was, "we can't get a drink during a break?"

At that point I just walked away, obviously realizing that he is missing the bigger picture here. Any thoughts on handling this differently?
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Old Sat Feb 24, 2018, 01:37am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by packersowner View Post
Had an odd one the other night.

1Q - shooting 2 FT's. I'm the T, I glance over my shoulder to see if we have a sub waiting after the first shot. I quickly realize something isn't right. The assistant coach is standing on the court with a whiteboard drawing up something for the 4 players not involved in the FT. HC is kneeling talking to a player with his back to the game. Then I realize that a student manager has brought water out to the 4 players and is also standing on the court.

I halted my partners from proceeding with the 2nd FT and said, "coach, I need you to take a seat. This isn't a timeout and we shouldn't have water on the court." At this point the head coach realizes whats happening and pops up saying, "what's a matter?" After a quick explanation, his response was, "we can't get a drink during a break?"

At that point I just walked away, obviously realizing that he is missing the bigger picture here. Any thoughts on handling this differently?

Based upon your description A1 has been awarded two FTs. While A1 is attempting his two FTs, A2, A3, A4, and A5 are standing in front of their Team's Bench. A2, A3, A4, and A5 are doing nothing illegal. A-AC is not allowed to be standing and could be subject to a DTF with A-HC being accessed an IDTF. The Student Manager cannot be on the Court.

BUT, nothing prohibits A2, A3, A4, and A5 from standing in front of Team A's Bench and drink water while A1 is attempting his FTs.

MTD, Sr.
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Old Sat Feb 24, 2018, 05:34am
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I was with MTD until his final comment.
Water is not allowed on the court during play. This includes FT attempts.
If these kids need water, then they need to be substituted and drink while on the bench.
Water is only permitted to be given to players during time-outs.
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Old Sat Feb 24, 2018, 06:38am
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General Safety Precaution, Or A Specific Rule ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
... nothing prohibits A2, A3, A4, and A5 from standing in front of Team A's Bench and drink water while A1 is attempting his FTs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Water is not allowed on the court during play. This includes FT attempts. If these kids need water, then they need to be substituted and drink while on the bench. Water is only permitted to be given to players during time-outs.
Agree in practice with Nevadaref, for general safety reasons.

But to Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.'s point, occasionally we see a water bottle handed to a player, not a cup of water. Is there a specific rule, casebook, or annual interpretation, against this, or is this just a general safety rule?

The only citation that I can come up with is if the water is spilled on the floor, generating a delay of game warning, or if already warned, a delay of game technical foul.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Feb 24, 2018 at 06:42am.
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Old Sat Feb 24, 2018, 08:11am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I was with MTD until his final comment.
Water is not allowed on the court during play. This includes FT attempts.
If these kids need water, then they need to be substituted and drink while on the bench.
Water is only permitted to be given to players during time-outs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Agree in practice with Nevadaref, for general safety reasons.

But to Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.'s point, occasionally we see a water bottle handed to a player, not a cup of water. Is there a specific rule, casebook, or annual interpretation, against this, or is this just a general safety rule?

The only citation that I can come up with is if the water is spilled on the floor, generating a delay of game warning, or if already warned, a delay of game technical foul.

NevadaRef: Please tell us what Rule prohibits A2, A3, A4, and A5 drinking water during A1's FTAs? Don't bother answering my question because it is a rhetorical question. There is no such Rule.

As BillyMac has pointed out there is a Rule to apply if Players from Team A spill dihydrogen monoxide (that was for all the Chemists and Chemical Engineers in the room because this is the last day of National Engineers Week, but I digress) on the Court.

MTD, Sr.
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Old Sat Feb 24, 2018, 08:32am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
The only citation that I can come up with is if the water is spilled on the floor, generating a delay of game warning, or if already warned, a delay of game technical foul.
Doesn't that apply only "after a time out" ?
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Old Sat Feb 24, 2018, 09:22am
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When communicating to bench Personnel don't make them have to figure out what the bigger picture is. Tell them the exact message you want them to receive.

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Old Sat Feb 24, 2018, 09:30am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I was with MTD until his final comment.
Water is not allowed on the court during play. This includes FT attempts.
If these kids need water, then they need to be substituted and drink while on the bench.
Water is only permitted to be given to players during time-outs.
Got a rule reference for that?
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Old Sat Feb 24, 2018, 10:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
As BillyMac has pointed out there is a Rule to apply if Players from Team A spill dihydrogen monoxide (that was for all the Chemists and Chemical Engineers in the room because this is the last day of National Engineers Week, but I digress) on the Court.

MTD, Sr.
Not wanting to water down the joke, I always preferred hydrogen hydroxide.

I'd probably go with a quick, strong, verbal suggestion rather than stopping the game with a whistle. Remind the AC about standing. Don't mind a quick water bottle drink but not a kid/manager with a cup of beverage. Talk about asking for trouble.

As far as the delay of game, anything unusual might cause a delay. Yes, there are specific acts listed to provide a warning for a delay but there are also only examples listed for player delays that warrant a technical. So, if kid spills water on the court during a FT, and it is enough to delay the game, call a T on the kid. Usually, if a couple of drops are spilled, they are quickly remedied and no delay occurs.
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Old Sat Feb 24, 2018, 12:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Not wanting to water down the joke, I always preferred hydrogen hydroxide.

I'd probably go with a quick, strong, verbal suggestion rather than stopping the game with a whistle. Remind the AC about standing. Don't mind a quick water bottle drink but not a kid/manager with a cup of beverage. Talk about asking for trouble.

As far as the delay of game, anything unusual might cause a delay. Yes, there are specific acts listed to provide a warning for a delay but there are also only examples listed for player delays that warrant a technical. So, if kid spills water on the court during a FT, and it is enough to delay the game, call a T on the kid. Usually, if a couple of drops are spilled, they are quickly remedied and no delay occurs.

ROTFLMTO!!

MTD, Sr.
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Old Sat Feb 24, 2018, 03:02pm
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Always Listen To bob ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Doesn't that apply only "after a time out" ?
A warning to a team for delay is an administrative procedure by an official
which is recorded in the scorebook by the scorer and reported to the coach:
ART. 1 For throw-in plane violations, as in 9-2-10, 10-1-5c.
ART. 2 For huddle by either team and contact with the free thrower, as in
10-1-5d.
ART. 3 For interfering with the ball following a goal as in 10-1-5e.
ART. 4 For failure to have the court ready for play following any time-out
as in 10-1-5f.

Can we assume that an intermission is not a timeout? I believe so. Word to the wise: Sometimes a delay of game isn't really a delay of game.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Feb 24, 2018 at 03:15pm.
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Old Sun Feb 25, 2018, 02:50am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Got a rule reference for that?
Same rule which prevents A1 from running around on the court the whole game with a water bottle in his hand.
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Old Sun Feb 25, 2018, 11:07am
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Water Bottle ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Same rule which prevents A1 from running around on the court the whole game with a water bottle in his hand.
3.5 SITUATION A: What are the standards which the referee must use in determining
whether a team member will be permitted to wear certain equipment?
RULING: The referee must rule on the legality of any piece of equipment which is
worn to protect an injury. Protective equipment must be individually inspected
and approved using the criteria outlined. There are three criteria which determine
the legality of equipment. First, any equipment which, in the judgment of the referee,
is dangerous to others.
In this respect, elbow, wrist, hand, finger or forearm
guards, casts or braces made of hard and unyielding leather, plaster, plastic,
metal or any other hard substance shall always be declared illegal “even though
covered with soft padding.” Thus, the rule does not permit that this provision be
set aside. The prohibition of the use of hard substance material does not apply to
the upper arm, or shoulder if the hard material is appropriately padded so that in
the judgment of the referee it is not hazardous to others. Knee and ankle braces
which are unaltered from the manufacturer’s original design are permitted and do
not require any additional padding/covering. Equipment which could cut or cause
an opponent to have an abrasion is also always illegal and, therefore, is prohibited.
It will be noted that the listing of equipment which is always illegal is not inclusive.
It cannot identify every item which is not permitted. The generalization is
required since the referee’s judgment is necessary. The second standard provides
that “any equipment which is unnatural and designed to increase the player’s
height or vertical reach, or to gain a competitive advantage, shall not be used.”
The referee is given no leeway here and judgment is not required. The third criterion
provides that equipment used must be appropriate for basketball
and not
be confusing. In this sense, gloves, football face masks and helmets are not
acceptable. A protector for a broken nose, even though made of hard material, is
permissible provided it is worn molded to the face with no protrusions. Eyeglass
protectors are considered appropriate equipment for basketball provided they
meet the qualifications for legal equipment, including the third criterion.

Religious and medical-alert medals are not considered jewelry and may be
worn provided: 1) religious medals are taped and worn under the uniform, necklaces/
bracelets must be removed or also taped and completely under the uniform;
and 2) medical-alert medals are taped to the body (portions may be visible to
show medical information), necklaces/bracelets must be removed or also completely
taped.

The state association may authorize exceptions to the playing rules to provide
reasonable accommodations to participants with disabilities and/or special needs
or other unique and extenuating circumstances. The accommodations should not
fundamentally alter the sport, create risk of injury to the student-athlete/others or
place opponents at a disadvantage.

3.5 SITUATION C: May a team member wear: (a) shoes which have a light
mechanism or have lights which are activated by heel contact with the floor; or
(b) gloves? RULING: No, in both (a) and (b). In (a), the shoes may be worn if the
lights are deactivated. In (b), gloves are not needed to play the game and are not
considered to be appropriate.


Can we change the wording and say that water bottles are not needed to play the game and are not considered to be appropriate? I think so, but I would be hard pressed to prevent a player from taking a sip of water from a water bottle handed to him while he is near his bench during a free throw, trainer attending an injured player on the court, officials gathering to discuss an issue with each other, or with the table, several substitutions, etc. (a stoppage in action). Of course, one big difference is that the ball is live during a free throw, not so during the other stoppages I mentioned.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Feb 25, 2018 at 01:11pm.
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Old Sun Feb 25, 2018, 01:57pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Same rule which prevents A1 from running around on the court the whole game with a water bottle in his hand.
Because standing on the sideline grabbing a sip during a free throw is comparable to running up and down the floor with a bottle in your hand.

And you’re a lawyer?
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Old Sun Feb 25, 2018, 02:08pm
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What Would The NFHS Do ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
... standing on the sideline grabbing a sip during a free throw is comparable to running up and down the floor with a bottle in your hands.
They aren't comparable (from two widely separated ends of a spectrum, standing versus running around), and yet, they are comparable (it's the same spectrum, water being consumed on the court during a live ball).

I would allow one (the former) but I wouldn't allow the other (the later). The question on the floor is what rulebook, casebook, or annual interpretation, citation can we use to support our opinion?

After a long, hard, journey up the side of very tall mountain peak, I encountered a very old wise man, with a long white beard, who told me, "If it's not illegal, it's legal".

I responded, "That's all you got? I've traveled thousands of miles, and all you've got is, if it's not illegal, it's legal."?

He responded, "Well, would you like my recipe for fish heads?".

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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Feb 25, 2018 at 04:08pm.
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