Stop Sign

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Matt S.

The reason the stop sign is encouraged by many is because it shows up on film. If you have to assess a technical foul, you avoid the 'the ref didn't even warn me' debate with something visual. I realize that some on here will say warnings aren't their style, but in the area and levels in which I work, that progression step before a T is encouraged, unless the behavior is exceptionally public or personal.

HS comment only:

But now we have the official warning, which we put in the book, which really should replace the stop sign for those that use it.

Because the next stop after the official warning is a technical foul. Where would the stop sign actually fit?

[Matt S.]

Good point Rich.

I'd have to see the film, but I'd be willing to wager that during at least one of my bench conduct warning situations this season, after telling the book and turning to inform the coach, I used a 'mild' (palm and arm angled slightly towards floor) stop sign in conjunction with the verbal info they'd been warned. Not encouraging it, just thinking about it per this discussion.

[packersowner]

Originally Posted by Rich

HS comment only:

But now we have the official warning, which we put in the book, which really should replace the stop sign for those that use it.

Because the next stop after the official warning is a technical foul. Where would the stop sign actually fit?

Agree on this, however, I had a situation last night where I went:

1. "Coach that's enough" with a stop sign.
2. "What do you mean thats enough, you can't tell me be quiet"
3. Quick tweet, "coach warning"

So to me, you still can have a coach run through a stop sign, but after the warning, that's it, my stop sign turns into a "T Intersection"

[mattmets]

I have worked baseball for about 15 years and just got into basketball last year. I learned really quickly that even though the stop sign works 95% of the time in baseball when coaches know you've heard them, it's an epic failure in basketball the majority of the time. It was my go to coach management style coming into basketball and I got burned quickly. I do still use it occasionally for players depending on our interaction, but I will almost always talk to a coach before he gets the stop sign. The hand typically only comes out when I'm walking away from the coach after our discussion or if the ball is live and he wants to carry on. At that point, AFAIC, he's getting whatever he's asking for once we've talked.

Take it for what it's worth, especially with the far senior guys on this board, but that's been my experience crossing over from a sport that uses the hand much more liberally.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by packersowner

Agree on this, however, I had a situation last night where I went:

1. "Coach that's enough" with a stop sign.
2. "What do you mean thats enough, you can't tell me be quiet"
3. Quick tweet, "coach warning"

So to me, you still can have a coach run through a stop sign, but after the warning, that's it, my stop sign turns into a "T Intersection"

But talk of the stop sign was before this new warning. And it was said that if they walk through the stop sign, you were supposed to get them. The problem is all of that boxes you in. You have little choice or you look either weak or you look like you did not mean your position.

So why is it any different than a warning? At least with a warning, you have something official. A stop sign looks like a confrontation. And yes it matters based on many factors (e.g. Who you are and what you look like).

Peace

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

But talk of the stop sign was before this new warning. And it was said that if they walk through the stop sign, you were supposed to get them. The problem is all of that boxes you in. You have little choice or you look either weak or you look like you did not mean your position.

So why is it any different than a warning? At least with a warning, you have something official. A stop sign looks like a confrontation. And yes it matters based on many factors (e.g. Who you are and what you look like).

Peace

My "stop sign" previous to this year was essentially an "official warning" as it's defined and utilized this season.

I choose to give 3 or 4 "stop signs/warnings" per year - that's just how it always seems to work out. 1 or 2 coaches, on average, don't get the stop sing/warning - I go straight to the TF. It's all based on so many factors. Every season, venue, coach, matchup, situation is different. Yes, there are black and white situations too, but my experience using the "stop sign/official warning" has been quite effective. That, obviously, could change tomorrow night. Time will tell.

[packersowner]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

But talk of the stop sign was before this new warning. And it was said that if they walk through the stop sign, you were supposed to get them. The problem is all of that boxes you in. You have little choice or you look either weak or you look like you did not mean your position.

So why is it any different than a warning? At least with a warning, you have something official. A stop sign looks like a confrontation. And yes it matters based on many factors (e.g. Who you are and what you look like).

Peace

You're completely right, who you are and how you look does play into it.

I don't disagree with your overall assessment, but its also not officially written that a warning should replace a stop sign. I do think as others have pointed out, its about demeanor and how you present it. If you are going to look like a NYC traffic cop at 5 PM, thats a lot different than saying "coach, thats enough" with a open hand like looks more like tell my partners I have had two beers and need to drive home.

I think you can tell a coach, we've had enough without warning them and conversely, I think you can officially warn a coach without telling them its enough. And as much as it is who you are and what you look like, I think we all know the coaches that need the stop sign or the immediate warning.

[RefsNCoaches]

I've given two official warnings this year and was met with "Then call it both ways" immediately after...so there were two of my Ts on Coaches this year.

I also brought two 8th grade players who were whistled for double foul by my partner together to remind them we weren't going to let attitudes take over the game today...I was met with and under the breath "What the F is this guy talking about?!" ...he was sent packing.

As for the stop sign, I've used it in past and I think the official warning is the same thing but carries more validity...except for those two knuckleheads mentioned above.

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by RefsNCoaches

I've given two official warnings this year and was met with "Then call it both ways" immediately after...so there were two of my Ts on Coaches this year.

That's more or less what happened in my situation a week or so ago.

On another occasion, I remember hearing a coach muttering something nice meant for me to hear while reporting the official warning to the table, and, since protocol doesn't require or imply the reporting official to move away opposite tableside, I looked directly at him and said sternly, "It would be in your best interest to stop talking right now."

He still probably doesn't realize how "nice" of a guy I am and much grace I extended him.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by #olderthanilook

On another occasion, I remember hearing a coach muttering something nice meant for me to hear while reporting the official warning to the table, and, since protocol doesn't require or imply the reporting official to move away opposite tableside, I looked directly at him and said sternly, "It would be in your best interest to stop talking right now."

And that's the way it should be. The official that gives the warning should be the one to handle the business that follows if necessary. I work with some partners who want to go away from the table after they give a warning. Why? If the coach chooses not to heed the warning, that is 100% on him. Handle your business or don't warn.