The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball
Register FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 25, 2007, 01:36pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: In a little pink house
Posts: 5,289
Stop Sign Not Considered Harmful

I have noted with some sadness the fad of bashing of the stop sign here. It's high time somebody stood up for this much maligned game management tool. I guess this makes me somebody

Let me start by saying that I respect what tomegun has been trying to accomplish with his comments. I have even benefited from them: I've given a couple Ts this year that were deserved and afforded no opportunity to stop sign the recipient. Previously I might have felt obliged to give some kind of warning instead of taking care of business. So, Tom, thanks for helping make my game better.

But all this negative press does not negate the simple truth that the stop sign remains a good game management tool. It still works as well as it always has for a variety of uses, mostly having to do with helping a coach or player understand when they are nearing the end of their leash and there is a chance for them to reel themselves back in. And it still has the added benefit of being visible on film.

Despite the criticism it has come under here recently, officials should not hesistate to use it -- when it is appropriate. In fact, rather than eliminate it from their bag of tools, most of us should probably pull it out sooner than we do.

I'm not on a crusade to end the dialogue about when it's appropriate and inappropriate to use. I find that useful. What I find disturbing is the way that other "wanna-be cool kids" regularly pile on. I'm talking about snide comments along the lines of "Did you give him the stop sign, that would have fixed everything." Tomegun's comments certainly sounded heretical to begin with, but were aimed solidly at accomplishing a specific, useful end. But these pile on comments are nothing more than the moral equivalent of picking on the nerdy kid to try to appear to be cool too.

Most of us realize that, chuckle, and don't lose any sleep over it. But there are a lot of newer officials who come here looking to us for sound advice and I think we do them harm by openly dissing the stop sign just to try to be cool.
__________________
"It is not enough to do your best; you must know what to do, and then do your best." - W. Edwards Deming
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 25, 2007, 01:51pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Kaukauna, WI
Posts: 832
I appreciate the constructive voice added to the dialogue. I agree with what you're saying about the pile-on.

Perhaps there's a middle ground we haven't considered.

__________________
Quitters never win, winners never quit, but those who never win AND never quit are idiots.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 25, 2007, 02:02pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 23,374
Helpful ?????

I believe I got the following, with some editing, from the Tri-City (Washington State ???) Officials Association web site. It may be helpful to rookie officials:

Technical Fouls

Top Reasons To Not Give A Technical Foul
1) You can address a coach before it becomes a problem. A quiet word can go a long way in preventing a technical foul.
2) When coaches complain ask yourself, is the call questionable, is the call wrong. If they have a legitimate gripe then allow them some latitude.
3) If you know a coach is upset then move out onto the floor when in front of their bench.
4) Warnings can be very effective in preventing situations from escalating. Don't tolerate a lot before a warning.
5) Lend and ear. Coaches like to be heard. If you ignore them then they become more frustrated and are more likely to lose control.
6) If an assistant is out of line, then you can speak to the head coach and ask them to help you out.
7) If a player is out of line then let the coach know. Tell them you've warned their player. That way if you do give a technical foul, then the coach isn't surprised. Most good coaches will speak to the player first.
8) If you have had a rough day and know your fuse is short, keep that in mind before you do anything rash. Ask yourself, does the situation come under one of the top ten reasons to give a technical foul.

Top Reasons To Give A Technical Foul
Knowing when the right time to call a technical foul is half the battle. There are many different factors to consider, when deciding to give a technical foul. Generally, there are three areas of coach's behavior that need attention: when a coach makes it personal, when a coach draws attention to himself or herself, and when a coach's complaints are persistent.

Some technical fouls are easy. They are black and white situations that leave little room for negotiations:
1) Using profanity or language that is abusive, vulgar, or obscene.
2) If a coach questions your integrity.
3) Inciting an undesirable crowd reaction.
4) If you are being embarrassed.
5) If coach or player has been warned and has not heeded the warning.
6) Leaving the confines of the coaching box and complaining.
7) A coach demonstrates displeasure with your partner and their back is turned.

Other technical fouls are not as black and white. In some situations a warning may be appropriate before the technical foul is given:
8) A coach or player continually demonstrates signals or asks for calls.
9) If they have interfered with the game or your concentration then they have usually gone too far.
10) If giving a technical will help give structure back to the game and if it will have a calming effect on things.

Top Ways To Give A Technical Foul
1) Calling a technical foul should be no different then calling any other violation. Maintain a pleasant attitude,have poise and presence. Don't embarrass the coach by being demonstrative.
2) Explain technical fouls on players to coaches.
4) Never look at a coach when you give a technical foul.
3) Call the technical foul. Report it to the table and leave the area. Find your partner.
4) Explanations, it needed should be done by partner.
5) After technical fouls, get the ball in play immediately.
6) Make them earn the second technical foul. Don't be reluctant to give the second trechnical foul if it is warranted.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 25, 2007, 01:54pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 4,222
My opinion only:

There is nothing a stop sign can do that a low volume word or two cannot do.

Whereas I have seen the very visible stop sign make a situation worse (the coach and crowd can easily interpret it as being "shown up") I have never had a properly chosen soft word turn a situation worse.

I will continue to employ less potentially volatile techniques.
__________________
GB
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 25, 2007, 02:57pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarthB
My opinion only:

There is nothing a stop sign can do that a low volume word or two cannot do.

Whereas I have seen the very visible stop sign make a situation worse (the coach and crowd can easily interpret it as being "shown up") I have never had a properly chosen soft word turn a situation worse.

I will continue to employ less potentially volatile techniques.
I see what you're saying, but if you're about to administer a free throw and the coach is jawing, you've got no way to have a quick "low volume word." I'm not a big fan of the stop sign, but I've used it to good effect once or twice.

And just yesterday I had a coach run right through a "properly chosen soft word." It wasn't what he wanted to hear, and "that's enough, coach" (loud enough for him to hear) didn't work.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 25, 2007, 04:21pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,555
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
I see what you're saying, but if you're about to administer a free throw and the coach is jawing, you've got no way to have a quick "low volume word." I'm not a big fan of the stop sign, but I've used it to good effect once or twice.
No way? Are you sure about that? If you are working 3 man, you can go right to the coach and talk to them. If you are working 2 man, tell the coach, "I will be over there in a second, give me a chance" and they will have to hold their horses. If they do not, then you have options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
And just yesterday I had a coach run right through a "properly chosen soft word." It wasn't what he wanted to hear, and "that's enough, coach" (loud enough for him to hear) didn't work.
Maybe you could choose a better set of words than "That's enough coach." This also sounds confrontational as well in my opinion.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 25, 2007, 04:43pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Lakewood, Ohio
Posts: 718
My Legacy to this forum

This whole stop sign controversy started with one of my postsand me describing when I used it (which did end up in a T). However, Friday night, I had a situation that I know some would've used the stop sign.

Home team (Falcons) were Hosting the Rangers. Boys JV. Falcons coach is usually very calm. Two pretty good teams. Falcons lead most of the game 6-10 points. With about 4:00 in the game Rangers put a little run together to close to 7. I am lead as Falcons have the ball. Rangers player tips away ball from behind as Falcons player drives the lane. Before the ball goes out of bounds, it hits off the chest of a Falcons player. I call blue and point the other way. In hind sight I realize that the Falcons player had his back to the bench and there is no way anyone byt me saw the play. As I get ready to administer the throw in the Falcons coach says out loud for the whole gym to hear, "Come on Ignats, don't start screwing me now."

I didn't give him the stop sign. I Whacked him. I'm sure in my first couple of years the stop sign is all I would've given him. But now I won't tolerate anyone questioning my integrity like that.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 25, 2007, 05:03pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,555
The usage or non-usage of the stop sign should not be a prerequisite of using good communication skills and good mechanics which will sell more of your calls a lot more than a single gesture ever will.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 25, 2007, 05:02pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
No way? Are you sure about that? If you are working 3 man, you can go right to the coach and talk to them. If you are working 2 man, tell the coach, "I will be over there in a second, give me a chance" and they will have to hold their horses. If they do not, then you have options.
I'm talking about lead on a free throw. 2 man or 3 man, it isn't going to make a difference. I suppose I could have held off on the free throw and walked over for a discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
Maybe you could choose a better set of words than "That's enough coach." This also sounds confrontational as well in my opinion.
You're right. I'm not happy with the way that went down, and that's the part I've been rethinking since then. Problem is, the ball was live and inbounds when he responded to my answer with, "That's terrible." I was right in front of him, but didn't find it appropriate to turn my back. A longer answer may have been appropriate, something more direct and detailed addressing his behavior.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 25, 2007, 05:13pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,555
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
I'm talking about lead on a free throw. 2 man or 3 man, it isn't going to make a difference. I suppose I could have held off on the free throw and walked over for a discussion.
Why are you talking to a coach from the lead position at all in a 3 person game? There is an official standing closer to a coach than you will ever be at the lead. If you do it right, the calling officials is the officials closest to the coach anyway. Now in 2 man, I am not talking a lot to a coach ever during that sequence. But I will establish this pretty early in my games.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
You're right. I'm not happy with the way that went down, and that's the part I've been rethinking since then. Problem is, the ball was live and inbounds when he responded to my answer with, "That's terrible." I was right in front of him, but didn't find it appropriate to turn my back. A longer answer may have been appropriate, something more direct and detailed addressing his behavior.
This is why you should mostly be talking to coaches during dead ball. I do not talk to coaches a lot during live ball as a regular practice. I tend to ignore them during those times. When there is a dead ball or there is after a timeout, I will make myself available if a coach has a legitimate question. I used to try to talk to coaches during live ball and the message hardly ever gets across when I am running by. Usually I will just tell the coach, "Wait until a dead ball and I will talk to you when I get a chance."

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 25, 2007, 05:01pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarthB
There is nothing a stop sign can do that a low volume word or two cannot do.
Is there an argument for using the stop sign because that will show up on game tape? Since we are constantly on video, using visible means of commication can be useful - especially if the coach ends up being ejected and there is some reason to revisit the chain of events.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 25, 2007, 05:38pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,555
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkjenning
Is there an argument for using the stop sign because that will show up on game tape? Since we are constantly on video, using visible means of commication can be useful - especially if the coach ends up being ejected and there is some reason to revisit the chain of events.
I have heard that issue discussed before. I do not necessarily agree that this solves all issues. You still will have to explain why you called a T. And unless you are in the picture on video, it might not be clear if you used the stop sign. I am not sure I would rely on the video tape to save my behind.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 25, 2007, 05:48pm
Huck Finn
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 3,347
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
I have heard that issue discussed before. I do not necessarily agree that this solves all issues. You still will have to explain why you called a T. And unless you are in the picture on video, it might not be clear if you used the stop sign. I am not sure I would rely on the video tape to save my behind.

Peace
GREAT point that I hope will not get overlooked by those viewing this thread!
__________________
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are." -- John Wooden
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 25, 2007, 05:22pm
Esteemed Participant
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 4,775
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarthB
There is nothing a stop sign can do that a low volume word or two cannot do.
I respectfully disagree...I am not a fan of the stop sign. I have used it only one time that I can remember this season, but at the time I used it, I wanted everyone in the gym - including the evaluator/observer sitting up in the top row - to know that the coach had gone too far and needed to cease and desist. Did he end up getting T'd - yes...but not by me. There are times when the stop sign sends the message to everyone in the gym that the coach needs to stop whatever it is he/she is doing...
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 25, 2007, 06:31pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockyroad
I respectfully disagree...I am not a fan of the stop sign. I have used it only one time that I can remember this season, but at the time I used it, I wanted everyone in the gym - including the evaluator/observer sitting up in the top row - to know that the coach had gone too far and needed to cease and desist. Did he end up getting T'd - yes...but not by me. There are times when the stop sign sends the message to everyone in the gym that the coach needs to stop whatever it is he/she is doing...
Yup, it's just another tool that works in certain situations if it's used correctly. Experience and officiating acumen lets you know how and when to use it.

It can be used appropriately on players, assistant coaches, etc. too.

Never say never.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Stop Sign OklahomaRef Basketball 37 Sun Feb 11, 2007 01:46pm
got the stop sign last night biz Basketball 30 Wed Jan 24, 2007 01:42pm
How Long do you hold your stop sign? fonzzy07 Basketball 65 Fri Jan 19, 2007 03:45pm
Running a stop sign Adam Basketball 10 Wed Dec 08, 2004 04:57pm
Stop Sign! Back In The Saddle Basketball 34 Tue Mar 04, 2003 02:46pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:50pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1