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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 27, 2019, 10:22am
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The Old Refrain ...

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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
I'll continue to blow my whistle at the end of a quarter cause it's what we do here.
As with many things discussed here on the Forum, when in Rome ...
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 27, 2019, 11:05am
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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
As with many things discussed here on the Forum, when in Rome ...
I do things that work, not things to satisfy some organization in or out of Rome.

Peace
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 27, 2019, 11:59am
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Face Of The Organization ...

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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I do things that work, not things to satisfy some organization in or out of Rome.


Easy for you to say.

You're Mike.

In addition to being a highly respected and successful official (in multiple states, in multiple sports), aren't you a teacher/clinician in your local/state area?

If so, doesn't that make you the face of the "organization", a voice of authority, and one who sets the guidelines and expectations in your local/state area?

In most cases, wouldn't that mean that what "works" for you, will also "work" for all, and should be taught and passed on to new officials?

You're the leader, they follow, what you do (and teach) becomes the local/state "book".

Why would you teach something that you know won't "work" and that you wouldn't do yourself?

Set them straight.

Teach them what works for you, because it will probably, in most cases, also work for them.

When you're at the top of the officiating hill, as you are, it's easy to ignore advice from above, because there is no above.

You're the above (by both reputation and title).

You're "Rome".

You're the authority figure.

It's a different view from the bottom up.

Those below you, including new officials, should follow your leadership and sage advice, and at least initially, shouldn't be striking out with their own guidelines, especially when they have a great example in you to follow.

If they know what's best for them regarding how to move up the local/state ladder, they're probably all trying to "satisfy" you, their leader, their teacher, their example to follow, their voice of authority, and the face of the "organization".

If not sounding a whistle before a free throw after a timeout works for you, wouldn't it also work for everybody else, and wouldn't you teach that?

And then, wouldn't that become part of your local/state/Rome guidelines, maybe not in writing, but passed down by oral traditions, passed down by young officials observing you, emulating you, following your example, guidelines that new officials could follow to move up the ladder, certainly better than floundering around on their own with no guidance?

If I move out to the Midwest, and I'm encouraged to not sound a whistle before a free throw after a timeout, then I'm not sounding a whistle before a free throw after a timeout.

If not sounding is preferred by the teacher/clinician, who also happens to be one of the best officials in Illinois and Indiana, and it appears to be a "local custom", then that's good enough for me.

Why fight city hall?

What would be the point?

When in the Midwest, do as Midwesterners do.

(If the band is still playing when I'm ready to administer the free throw, then I hope that I could show some initiative and sound my whistle and not have it effect my evaluation that night.)

Note: Despite what I wrote above, I'm still a realist. We can still be successful in our locality/state by doing a few of our own things, our own way, not always "by the book" like robots, but it is nice to have a "book" to follow when we need it, especially when we're first learning something. I'm a retired teacher, over thirty years in the classroom. I hold all teachers (of any type) and all teaching/instruction in very high regard. Teaching and learning is always easier when there is a "book", written or otherwise, to learn common consistent basics. Students (of all types) look up to teachers and expect them to set them on the right path, and the smooth path, to learning and to also set a good example for students to follow. To do otherwise would be a disservice to the profession, and to the learners (students).
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Aug 27, 2019 at 01:50pm.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 27, 2019, 01:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Easy for you to say.

In addition to being a highly respected and successful official, aren't you a teacher/clinician in your local/state area?

If so, doesn't that make you the face of the "organization", and one who sets the guidelines and expectations in your local/state area?
No, simply no one cared about these little details or was going around firing officials because they did not follow a line in a book that most of us never see or have in our possession, to care about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
In most cases, wouldn't that mean that what "works" for you, will also "work" for all, and should be taught and passed on to new officials?

You're the leader, they follow, what you do (and teach) becomes the local/state "book".
I might be a leader, but no one is going around making officials do anything here. WE might tweak something an official does, but no one is going around worrying about these kinds of things. Honestly, we want people that can call the game and look like they know what they are doing. All these little details are usually personal or what they have been taught. I do not recall telling anyone in camp to blow or not to blow their whistle at the end of a quarter. All I tell them is to not blow a whistle if you are not the official ruling on the last-second shot. That should only come from the calling or ruling official.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Why would you teach something that you know won't "work" and that you wouldn't do yourself?

Set them straight.

Teach them what works for you, because it will probably, in most cases, also work for them.
You are being a little dramatic. It really is not that serious. You keep referring to a book that many of us never use. We do not have IAABO in my area. We do not have associations that assign every game for us. We are truely independent contractors from the standpoint that if a conference assignor likes us, they hire us. They are not regulated by some larger, multi state organization that will not give us a middle school game if we do not pass their specific test or follow their specific rules. Not how it works in either state I work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
When your at the top of the officiating hill, as you are, it's easy to ignore advice from above, because there is no above.
You're the above (by both reputation and title).

You're "Rome".

It's a different view from the bottom up.

Those below you, including new officials, should follow your leadership and sage advice, and at least initially, shouldn't be striking out with their own guidelines, especially when they have a great example in you to follow.
All a clinician is in the state of Illinois is someone that is trained to run clinics for the state and follow well-known procedures followed by the state. We are not as unique as you are trying to suggest. I believe over there are 100 individuals that are clinicians in our state just in basketball. We are not the only one in our local official's association and many times we are one of many. We are not elected by our LOA. We are licensed by the state and the head clinician of that sport. I belong to associations where there are up to 6 clinicians that are members. We all do not agree on every issue or every procedure. Even when we have a periodic meeting there is debate and we have clinicians ask for clarification on certain procedures. We do not use the NF Mechanics Book and there are things that our head clinician or the state wants to do that might be a little different than what is in the book. Like there was a big thing one meeting about whether we should blow a whistle for a sub. There were people in the clinician meeting advocating that we should blow the whistle and others saying we shouldn't. Then there was a debate about if you should ever use two hands to "hold up" your partner or use one hand so they did not put the ball in play. All things that are not supported or explicitly stated in the NF Mechanics book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
If they know what's best for them regarding how to move up the local/state ladder, they're probably all trying to "satisfy" you, their leader, their teacher, their example to follow, and the face of the "organization".

If not sounding a whistle before a free throw after a timeout works for you, wouldn't it also work for everybody else, and wouldn't you teach that?
Since you mentioned this I looked it up. I do not find anywhere in the NF book that says you must blow your whistle following a timeout before a FT. I believe it was there at one time, but I am not finding such a reference. All I see about a timeout to blow a whistle before a throw-in. I could be wrong, but someone would have to show me the reference to this procedure during a FT.

Also in my 24 years of officiating basketball at all levels below Division 1, I have never seen an official blow their whistle after a timeout to administer a FT except for one person. That one person I worked with often and he was the only one on the crew that did that. Our other partner and me (both clinicians BTW) never blew a whistle before putting the ball in play after a timeout for a FT. I do not think I ever asked my partner why he did that. It never came up and never was something I even saw him teach or instruct. And I am sure I have worked or witness well over 1000 officials personally. That includes all State Final officials I have witnessed or worked with and even lower level officials that work in front of me on any given high school night. And I am far from the one that taught all these people how to officiate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
And then, wouldn't that become part of your local/state/Rome guidelines, guidelines that new officials could follow to move up the ladder, certainly better than floundering around on their own with no guidance?
Again, I am not the person telling people what to do in their every day officiating. Not only do I not have that kind of power, I am not the one that officials look up to beyond some specific association I may belong to. I belong to 3 basketball associations. There are many others I have never run or been apart of the camps those officials are taught with. It is not that deep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Note: Despite what I wrote above, I'm still a realist. We can still be successful in our locality/state by doing a few of our own things, our own way, not always "by the book", but it is nice to have a "book" to follow when we need it, especially when we're first learning something. I'm a retired teacher, over thirty years in the classroom. I hold all teachers (of any type) and all teaching in very high regard. Teaching and learning is always easier when there is a "book" to learn common consistent basics. Students (of all types) look up to teachers and expect them to set them on the right path to learning and to also set a good example for students to follow.
Well, I am the son of a college professor (retired). I know her teaching style in her field did not automatically match those of others in her field. And having been to college all teachers in my departments were not the same and did not require the same things to be successful in their classes.

Peace
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 27, 2019, 02:39pm
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Kipling Said It Best ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutledge View Post
You keep referring to a book that many of us never use. We do not have IAABO in my area. We do not have associations that assign every game for us. We are truly independent contractors ... Not how it works in either state I work.


Bingo. Hit the nail right on the head.

We do not do things the same, we're very different.

When in Illinois, or Indiana, or any part therein, do what's expected in Illinois, or Indiana, or any part therein.

When in Connecticut, or any little corner therein, do what's expected in Connecticut, or any little corner therein.

When in Rome, do what's expected in Rome.

That's what I meant in my earlier post.

Also, whenever I refer to "by the book", I don't always mean an actual written book, it could also refer to a set of unwritten guidelines, perhaps discussed at a meeting, or taught in a class, not everything is written down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Since you mentioned this I looked it up. I do not find anywhere in the NF book that says you must blow your whistle following a timeout before a FT.
I have no knowledge of this being a NFHS mechanic, or if it ever was a NFHS mechanic. We've been using IAABO mechanics for many years here in Connecticut (some IAABO boards in other states still use NFHS mechanics).

Time Out Procedures: When a timeout is followed by a free throw, sound the whistle prior to administering the free throw.

For some reason, maybe coming from a NFHS background, this IAABO mechanic has been overlooked or ignored for many years here in Connecticut, and like JRutledge, I can count on one hand the number of times over the past forty years that I've heard an official sound a whistle before a free throw after a timeout. And those few times probably had something to do, as mentioned earlier by Raymond, with the band or music playing.

Last year we were suddenly instructed (not sure by whom, international, state, or local) to follow the mechanic as outlined in the IAABO manual. Maybe it was a question on our local written mechanics refresher exam that was discussed at a meeting as being answered incorrectly on many exams?

It's still overlooked or ignored by most veterans, including yours truly. I actually tried it once last year, it seemed "weird" ("Hey everybody, look at me"). Maybe it will catch on after a few training classes are taught to sound their whistles in such situations?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Aug 28, 2019 at 10:58am.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 27, 2019, 02:57pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
[IMG]
When in Connecticut, or any little corner therein, do what's expected in Connecticut, or any little corner therein.
Theoretically, are not all corners the same infinitesimal size? Putting little or another adjective in front of it seems like an oxymoron.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 27, 2019, 03:03pm
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Four Corners ...

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Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Theoretically, are not all corners the same infinitesimal size? Putting little or another adjective in front of it seems like an oxymoron.
Pick a corner, any corner.



We call the northeast corner the "Quiet Corner" although the northwest corner is pretty quiet as well, except when the bears are growling, the fisher cats are screaming, and the coyotes are howling.

This map must look foreign to those of you who live in a state with dozens and dozens of counties.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Aug 27, 2019 at 03:13pm.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 27, 2019, 04:10pm
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Little Corners Of Connecticut ...

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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Pick a corner, any corner.
For those that are curious, here in Connecticut, eighteenth century blues laws in our originally Puritan colony banned the game of basketball in the four counties that are not on the four corners of the State.

They made a movie about it in 1984, it stared Kevin Bacon, John Lithgow, Lori Singer, and Dianne Wiest. Some of you may have seen it.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Aug 27, 2019 at 04:14pm.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 27, 2019, 04:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Bingo. Hit the nail right on the head.

We do not do things the same, we're very different.
That's what I meant in my earlier post.
I am glad you figured this out. You realize that people across the country do not work IAABO Mechanics. You realize that there are people literally that can read this board from all over the world, not just in your little corner. So when people talk about these things, they are not talking from your personal perspective. That should already be understood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Also, whenever I refer to "by the book", I don't always mean an actual written book, it could also refer to a set of unwritten guidelines, perhaps discussed at a meeting, or taught in a class, not everything is written down.
Do you think that others are not making a similar reference? Do you think the stuff I am talking about is only in a book? The specific thing I was referencing was not what I do as if I was alone. These are practices I speak are from all over the place. If you have different teaching that is fine and expected. I do not assume that all the officials that I work with from about 5 or 6 different states are the only officials on the planet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I have no knowledge of this being a NFHS mechanic, or if it ever was a NFHS mechanic. We've been using IAABO mechanics for many years here in Connecticut (some IAABO boards in other states still use NFHS mechanics).

For some reason, maybe coming from a NFHS background, this IAABO mechanic has been overlooked or ignored for many years here in Connecticut, and like JRutledge, I can count on one hand the number of times over the past forty years that I've heard an official sound a whistle before a free throw after a timeout. And those few times probably had something to do, as mentioned earlier by Raymond, with the band or music playing.

All of a sudden last year we were suddenly instructed (not sure by whom, international, state, or local) to follow the mechanic as outlined in the IAABO manual. Maybe it was a question on our local written mechanics refresher exam that was discussed at a meeting as being answered incorrectly on many exams?

It's still overlooked or ignored by most veterans, including yours truly. I actually tried it once last year, it seemed "weird" ("Hey everybody, look at me"). Maybe it will catch on after a few training classes are taught to sound their whistles in such situations?
But you went on an on about how I was somehow leading others into something, but the reality is that the very policy you referenced you are admitting that very few people follow? Surprise!!!!!

Peace
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 27, 2019, 09:50pm
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Vive La Différence ...

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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
But you went on an on about how I was somehow leading others into something, but the reality is that the very policy you referenced you are admitting that very few people follow? Surprise!!!!!
I was speaking in the general sense, only using this issue as an easy do, or don't do, example.

Did the NFHS ever require an official sound a whistle before a free throw after a timeout?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Aug 28, 2019 at 12:02am.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 28, 2019, 08:10am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I was speaking in the general sense, only using this issue as an easy do, or don't do, example.

Did the NFHS ever require an official sound a whistle before a free throw after a timeout?
I am pretty sure that was once in the mechanics book. It still might be there but I cannot find it at this time or it is not clearly stated (like many things).

Peace
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 28, 2019, 08:45am
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Appreciate It ...

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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I am pretty sure that was once in the mechanics book. It still might be there but I cannot find it at this time or it is not clearly stated (like many things).
Thanks for checking (to simply satisfy my curiosity). 100% IAABO Connecticut officials haven't had access to a NFHS Mechanics Manual for many many years.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Aug 28, 2019 at 08:57am.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 28, 2019, 07:24pm
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If your area does it, do it.

If not, don't.

95% of this entire thread is pointless.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 29, 2019, 09:55am
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Tell us how you really feel.

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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 29, 2019, 02:36pm
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Quote:
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If your area does it, do it.

If not, don't.

95% of this entire thread is pointless.
I'm surprised you didn't lock it since it was resurrected after 6 months dormancy.
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