Jerseys during Warm-ups

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So a player can be charged with a technical foul for removing the jersey within the visual confines of the playing area, but there's no penalty for not wearing a jersey between the officials jurisdiction beginning and the beginning of the game? How about a player whom the official identifies as wearing an illegal undershirt, removing the jersey within the visual confines of the playing area to remove the illegal undershirt, and then putting his jersey back on before the game begins?

Whenever I see illegal gear, next to skin, that requires removal, I tell the player to go to the locker room. I usually add a quick blurb about it being necessary to avoid a T or something along those lines.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

Whenever I see illegal gear, next to skin, that requires removal, I tell the player to go to the locker room. I usually add a quick blurb about it being necessary to avoid a T or something along those lines.

Good preventative officiating.

I, on the other hand, never tell a player that they have to remove anything, jewelry, illegal undershirt, etc. Per instructions by an attorney at a clinic many years ago (before the "taking off the jersey rule"), I just tell them that they can't play with illegal equipment, and leave it to the player, coach, and possibly, parent, to figure it out.

"Take out the earrings", stated by an official can have unintended (albeit very, very rare) health consequences that I just don't want to deal with.

Obviously, taking out earrings and taking off a jersey aren't (health wise) the same thing.

If I recall correctly, the "taking off the jersey rule" was to prevent a player who had just fouled out from showing resentment, or disgust, to the call by taking off the jersey on the way to the bench. I'll charge a technical foul in a New York minute every time in that situation.

Taking off a jersey to remove an illegal undershirt? Based on purpose and intent, I'm looking the other way.

I might mention to the player to go to the locker room if I have a direct conversation with them, but a player who decides to remove a jersey to remove an illegal undershirt on his own volition, I'm looking the other way. If the opposing coach questions my "call", I'm going with intent and purpose and the history of the rule.

Kicking the can down the road creating a problem for the next official in the same situation? Guilty as charged.

Let the stoning begin.

[FormerUmp]

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If I recall correctly,

You don't.

SITUATION 4: During the pregame warm-up, the 12 members of Team A are wearing warm-up tops, but not their team jerseys. Approximately one minute prior to the opening jump ball, the 12 Team A members go to the team bench, remove the warm-up tops and put on the team jerseys. RULING: One technical foul is charged to Team A, and it is also charged indirectly to the head coach. COMMENT: In a situation where similar multiple infractions occur at the same time, it is not the intent of the rules to penalize each individual infraction as a separate technical foul. (3-4-15; 10-4-1h)

SITUATION 5: A1 is directed to leave the game with a blood-saturated jersey. While at the team bench area, he/she removes the jersey and changes into a clean, spare jersey. RULING: A1 is assessed a technical foul. Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball for a division line throw-in. COMMENT: The uniform rule is intended to be applied in all situations. It is not unreasonable to expect team members to leave the playing area to change uniforms. (3-4-15; 10-4-1h)[

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jerkins

SITUATION 4: During the pregame warm-up, the 12 members of Team A are wearing warm-up tops, but not their team jerseys. Approximately one minute prior to the opening jump ball, the 12 Team A members go to the team bench, remove the warm-up tops and put on the team jerseys. RULING: One technical foul is charged to Team A, and it is also charged indirectly to the head coach. COMMENT: In a situation where similar multiple infractions occur at the same time, it is not the intent of the rules to penalize each individual infraction as a separate technical foul. (3-4-15; 10-4-1h)

SITUATION 5: A1 is directed to leave the game with a blood-saturated jersey. While at the team bench area, he/she removes the jersey and changes into a clean, spare jersey. RULING: A1 is assessed a technical foul. Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball for a division line throw-in. COMMENT: The uniform rule is intended to be applied in all situations. It is not unreasonable to expect team members to leave the playing area to change uniforms. (3-4-15; 10-4-1h)[

Great citations.

I wonder if they apply to frezer11's original post of putting jerseys on before a game, since the rule states that players can't remove the jersey and/or pants/skirt (nothing about putting jerseys on, and nothing was removed) within the visual confines of the playing area.

In fact Situation 4 doesn't exactly match the rule because the players are taking off warmups within the visual confines of the playing area, while the rule states that players can't remove the jersey and/or pants/skirt (nothing about removing warmups) within the visual confines of the playing area.

I wonder why an indirect technical foul isn't charged to the head coach in Situation 5, assuming the player directed to leave the game has already been substituted for and is now bench personnel.

Of course, Felix Unger told us what happens when we assume.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

You don't.

SITUATION 4: During the pregame warm-up, the 12 members of Team A are wearing warm-up tops, but not their team jerseys. Approximately one minute prior to the opening jump ball, the 12 Team A members go to the team bench, remove the warm-up tops and put on the team jerseys. RULING: One technical foul is charged to Team A, and it is also charged indirectly to the head coach. COMMENT: In a situation where similar multiple infractions occur at the same time, it is not the intent of the rules to penalize each individual infraction as a separate technical foul. (3-4-15; 10-4-1h)

SITUATION 5: A1 is directed to leave the game with a blood-saturated jersey. While at the team bench area, he/she removes the jersey and changes into a clean, spare jersey. RULING: A1 is assessed a technical foul. Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball for a division line throw-in. COMMENT: The uniform rule is intended to be applied in all situations. It is not unreasonable to expect team members to leave the playing area to change uniforms. (3-4-15; 10-4-1h)[

I'm assuming these citations are from a previous year's case book? I don't see them in the current book, and quoted rules citations are inaccurate. (Rule 3 Section 4 has 5 articles, not 15). What year's book are you referencing, or is this an interpretation from somewhere else?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by frezer11

I'm assuming these citations are from a previous year's case book? I don't see them in the current book, and quoted rules citations are inaccurate. What year's book are you referencing, or is this an interpretation from somewhere else?

2005-06 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations.

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...tml#post546075

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by frezer11

I'm assuming these citations are from a previous year's case book? I don't see them in the current book, and quoted rules citations are inaccurate. (Rule 3 Section 4 has 5 articles, not 15). What year's book are you referencing, or is this an interpretation from somewhere else?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

2005-06 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations.

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...tml#post546075

Got ya, thank you.

I don't know if this applies to the original scenario or not. What it does show is that if you pull off any kind of warm up, you must have the jersey underneath. As far as adding the jersey without taking anything off? It appears that the rule, cases, and interpretation are centered around removing items in the visual confines, not so much about adding them.

For the record, I think the intent of that interpretation is that teams must warm up in the game jersey, and will from here on out interpret it as such. I don't mean to be overly nit-picky, I just don't see the clear connection in the rules to this scenario.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by frezer11

I think the intent of that interpretation is that teams must warm up in the game jersey, and will from here on out interpret it as such.

Even if they warm up in their warmups and go into the locker room to change into their jerseys before the game starts?

I believe that this (below) is the intent:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Is it the intent of the NFHS that players not show any underwear (undershirt), or skin, within the visual confines of the playing area, before, or during the game (under the jurisdiction of the officials)?

But I gave up trying to understand some NFHS rule and interpretation (see backcourt simultaneous last to touch, first to touch) oddities a long time ago.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by frezer11

What it does show is that if you pull off any kind of warm up, you must have the jersey underneath.

I do not see where it shows that.

Is it the intent of the NFHS that players not show any underwear (undershirt), or skin, within the visual confines of the playing area, before, or during the game (under the jurisdiction of the officials)?

I feel it is skin.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by frezer11

I don't know if this applies to the original scenario or not. What it does show is that if you pull off any kind of warm up, you must have the jersey underneath. As far as adding the jersey without taking anything off? It appears that the rule, cases, and interpretation are centered around removing items in the visual confines, not so much about adding them.

I think the case play is assuming that the players had on ONLY the warmup tops, and not a t-shirt or something underneath.

IIRC (and my memory might be as faulty as Billy's), this all started with VB where the girls would (and still usually do) wear warmup tops, and then change into the jerseys later. They would do this at the bench, showing the sports-bras to all the HS boys.

So, imo, if the player is wearing the proper undershirt and then adds a jersey, that seems fine to me.

Once the jersey is on, though, it stays on.

[Big_Blue_Wannabe]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Kicking the can down the road creating a problem for the next official in the same situation? Guilty as charged.

It is this exact attitude that caused the NFHS to finally call out officials like you this year in the new book, letting you know that you are really part of the problem.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... "taking off the jersey rule" was to prevent a player who had just fouled out from showing resentment, or disgust, to the call by taking off the jersey on the way to the bench. I'll charge a technical foul in a New York minute every time in that situation. Taking off a jersey to remove an illegal undershirt? Based on purpose and intent, I'm looking the other way. I might mention to the player to go to the locker room if I have a direct conversation with them, but a player who decides to remove a jersey to remove an illegal undershirt on his own volition, I'm looking the other way. If the opposing coach questions my "call", I'm going with intent and purpose and the history of the rule. Kicking the can down the road creating a problem for the next official in the same situation? Guilty as charged.

Originally Posted by Big_Blue_Wannabe

It is this exact attitude that caused the NFHS to finally call out officials like you Rus year in the new book, letting you know that you are really part of the problem.

Originally Posted by Freddy

The statement, 'I am not the uniform police' is correct. However, officials are hired to enforce the rules of the game. Uniform, equipment, and apparel are all included in the rules book and must be enforced... Consistency among the officials in enforcement of these areas will provide for a unified statement to coaches. When some officials choose not to enforce the rules, they are only hurting the profession and setting up the next crew for criticism from the coaches, when, in fact, the officials who did not enforce the rules are the ones who deserve the criticism. (NFHS 2017-19 Basketball Officials Manual Point of Emphasis, p.4.).

Oddly, I agree with Big_Blue_Wannabe.

But in this very specific circumstance (telling a player that they can't play with an illegal undershirt, and then charging them with a technical foul when they go to the bench, on their own volition, and remove it) is not the way that I want to start my game, with both an irritated player, and an irritated coach ("But you told him that he couldn't play with that undershirt."), nor would almost all of my 300-plus local colleagues, some (sadly, more than just a few) that wouldn't even address the illegal undershirt, making me very confident that I won't be setting up the next crew for criticism from the coaches.

When in Rome ...

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

But in this very specific circumstance (telling a player that they can't play with an illegal undershirt, and then charging them with a technical foul when they go to the bench, on their own volition, and remove it) is not the way that I want to start my game,

So tell the player "if you want to play, you need to leave the gym and take off the undershirt" -- or tell that to the coach and have him/her tell the player.

Now if they stay and do it, it's no them.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

Whenever I see illegal gear ... that requires removal, I tell the player to go to the locker room.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

So tell the player "if you want to play, you need to leave the gym and take off the undershirt"

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Good preventative officiating.

Great advice from bucky and bob jenkins.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

When in Rome ...

The "Taking Off The Jersey Rule" has probably been around for a decade. Here in my little corner of Connecticut, I've never seen it enforced on any level for anything other than a player who had just fouled out showing resentment, or disgust, to the call by taking off the jersey on the way to the bench.

I wonder how many Forum members enforce every "Fashion Police" rule? Or how many officials, in general, fully understand, and enforce, every "Fashion Police" rule? Sad to say, we don't do a great job in my local area. Better enforcement of the undershirt rule (a very simple rule to understand, not many choices for legal colors) would lead to fewer players having to change (although, to flip it, no enforcement of the rule would lead to no players having to change), leading to less chance of players trying to change in the bench area.