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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 08, 2018, 10:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I don't lose sight of players who go down and may be injured. In a 3-man crew, I will always stay in the backcourt until play can be stopped.
I meant the camera moved ahead so that I, as a viewer watching the video, couldn't see the player.

For the record, I'm with you. I won't leave an injured player.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 08, 2018, 01:40pm
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Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers View Post
Yep. As soon as he pulled back and wasn't running the break, I'd probably blow it dead.
Agree.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 10, 2018, 11:32am
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If those that did not know, I was on this particular game. I was the new lead in the situation and was unaware at the time that there was even an injury. I did not notice the player stayed back until the play was killed.

When I looked at the video, I was just fine with what was done. The Trail and the Center knew more about the play than I did at the time. I could make an argument that either thing could be done. I would have been fine if they stopped play and I was fine with them keeping the play going. The player was not in immediate danger. He was not going to bleed out, he was down for either turning his ankle or hurting his knee. If there were players around him then I get the position to totally stop the play. But when the player goes down, we have no idea if he is going to get up, which I see all the time and try to continue.

Full disclosure, the coach was upset and eventually got a T. It might have been for that situation, but I am not sure that was the only situation he was complaining about.

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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 10, 2018, 12:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
If those that did not know, I was on this particular game. I was the new lead in the situation and was unaware at the time that there was even an injury. I did not notice the player stayed back until the play was killed.

When I looked at the video, I was just fine with what was done. The Trail and the Center knew more about the play than I did at the time. I could make an argument that either thing could be done. I would have been fine if they stopped play and I was fine with them keeping the play going. The player was not in immediate danger. He was not going to bleed out, he was down for either turning his ankle or hurting his knee. If there were players around him then I get the position to totally stop the play. But when the player goes down, we have no idea if he is going to get up, which I see all the time and try to continue.

Full disclosure, the coach was upset and eventually got a T. It might have been for that situation, but I am not sure that was the only situation he was complaining about.
Coach might have been more upset at that Charmin Soft™ and-1 you called when he’s already down 12.

I kid, but have a more patient whistle there JRut. Don’t think you needed that one.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 10, 2018, 12:24pm
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Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
Coach might have been more upset at that Charmin Soft™ and-1 you called when he’s already down 12.

I kid, but have a more patient whistle there JRut. Don’t think you needed that one.
I am fine with the whistle. Two hands in the back on the shot that bowed the shooter. Called that silly foul all game on both sides as a crew. He is not defending the play, just pushing a player in the back. Calling that every game and situation.

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 10, 2018, 12:40pm
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While I probably would have stopped the play when the first pass was made and no drive or shot occurred, I can also see why play continued. HTBT and part of the crew.

As for the whistle, I agree with Rut. That is a foul and the whistle is needed. A two-handed push in the back cannot be ignored. I also personally agree with the personal foul call and-1. However, isn't that the type of action/foul the NFHS wants to be called as an intentional foul? No legitimate attempt to play the ball. Again, I am guilty of probably not calling intentional fouls when they should be called BY DEFINITION but I like the personal foul and-1.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 10, 2018, 12:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
What about this play?



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I'm more concerned with the foul called on this play...From the camera angle it doesn't look like much
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 10, 2018, 01:04pm
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Originally Posted by OKREF View Post
I'm more concerned with the foul called on this play...From the camera angle it doesn't look like much
From the camera angle you can see the defender attempts to push the shooter. From the Lead's angle, the amount of contact is a lot easier to discern.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 10, 2018, 01:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I am fine with the whistle. Two hands in the back on the shot that bowed the shooter. Called that silly foul all game on both sides as a crew. He is not defending the play, just pushing a player in the back. Calling that every game and situation.
Bowing the back is not really a good indicator to use IMO. The shooter is too far under the basket and probably arches his back himself to get a better angle on the shot. The defender does not have his arms extended, does not displace the shooter, and the shooter is barely affected by the marginal contact.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 10, 2018, 01:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
Bowing the back is not really a good indicator to use IMO. The shooter is too far under the basket and probably arches his back himself to get a better angle on the shot. The defender does not have his arms extended, does not displace the shooter, and the shooter is barely affected by the marginal contact.
It's pretty impressive that you can tell all that from the crappy camera angle we have in this clip and JRut is at a perfect angle to actually make the call.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 10, 2018, 01:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
Bowing the back is not really a good indicator to use IMO. The shooter is too far under the basket and probably arches his back himself to get a better angle on the shot. The defender does not have his arms extended, does not displace the shooter, and the shooter is barely affected by the marginal contact.
So from this camera you have a better determination of the contact than the Lead has?
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 10, 2018, 02:26pm
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I was doing sign language for 13 years and body language and other cues are huge. I use them in basketball. If I see the defenders arms tighten when that foul happens or as someone said the player arches on his own because he realizes he is too deep under the basket. All of that is taken into account including other plays that game. Just way too much judgement here and our camera angle isnt great. I do know this. Just listening to JRut for years... he has good judgement and I am going with his call every time.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 10, 2018, 02:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
Bowing the back is not really a good indicator to use IMO. The shooter is too far under the basket and probably arches his back himself to get a better angle on the shot. The defender does not have his arms extended, does not displace the shooter, and the shooter is barely affected by the marginal contact.
OK, glad you know. But either way, I was not really looking for your approval, just stating what I saw. And in my world (and in my experience) that is a foul and a foul every time. The angle is not great in the video, but I saw the play clearly. If that is the worst thing you can say, then I am sleeping well at night about that call. Never crossed my mind it was not a foul. And I made a similar call like that last night.

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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 11, 2018, 09:48am
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Originally Posted by BryanV21 View Post
No, I understand what the post in and of itself meant. What doesn't make sense is leaving it has a reply to my post, which had nothing to do with the fans or getting the call right.
Pretty sure he replied to your post as an example of what you suggested about people's priorities not being in order with regard to player safety.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 11, 2018, 10:08am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigT View Post
I was doing sign language for 13 years and body language and other cues are huge. I use them in basketball. If I see the defenders arms tighten when that foul happens or as someone said the player arches on his own because he realizes he is too deep under the basket. All of that is taken into account including other plays that game. Just way too much judgement here and our camera angle isnt great. I do know this. Just listening to JRut for years... he has good judgement and I am going with his call every time.
What does your analysis of the body language clues tell you?
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