When to kill the play?

[chapmaja]

We had this situation today (JV game), luckily the player was able to return for the second game of the DH.

F1 throws the pitch which is lined back up the middle hitting the pitcher in the leg before bouncing into foul territory beyond first base. The pitcher immediately crumples to the ground, grabbing her leg. The batter runner, seeing the ball bounce away rounds first and heads standing into second.

Should the umpires have killed the play as soon as the ball hit the pitcher and bounded away? Should we have let play continue until all playing action stopped before killing play?

We let the play continue and killed it as soon as the runner stopped at second base.

My thinking on this is that the ball hit the lower leg of the pitcher, not the head, neck, or chest area. As such, the risk of a serious injury is limited compared with a hit to the above mentioned areas.

Under the rules, we can kill the play and award the bases we feel the batter runner and runners would have reached had the play not been stopped correct?

What would you do in a similar situation?

[LIUmp]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

We had this situation today

Of course you did. Why am I not surprised?

What would you do in a similar situation?

Based on your situations so far in the past week alone, when I see your name on my schedule, I'd run for the hills knowing full well what nuttiness I'd be up against.

[LIUmp]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Under the rules, we can kill the play and award the bases we feel the batter runner and runners would have reached had the play not been stopped correct?

What would you do in a similar situation?

To answer your question, the rule states that you kill the play when the play is over. In this situation, I wait for the play to be over. Did the batter stop at second? If so, and I think the play has ended, I stop the play. If not, play on. It's a live ball until that happens. The injury doesn't necessitate the immediate killing of the play.

[3afan]

agree with the above ... only kill the play immediately if the injury is serious and requires IMMEDIATE medical attention ... like if the line drive had hit the pitcher in the head

[MD Longhorn]

Unless seconds literally matter, play on.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by 3afan

agree with the above ... only kill the play immediately if the injury is serious and requires IMMEDIATE medical attention ... like if the line drive had hit the pitcher in the head

Even in that situation, IMMEDIATE medical attention isn't going to happen immediately. How quickly will a trainer run out there, if he/she is even at the park?

You have to use discretion here. Most often when a significant injury occurs, the players themselves tend to stop playing, and the umpire can kill things pretty quickly. But if the two teams are still actively playing, letting the play come to a usual end won't cause more harm to the injured player. From an umpiring perspective, it's easier to let the play finish than to kill it immediately and then try to figure out where to place runners.

Now, obviously if someone runs onto the field from the dugout or bleachers to tend to the injured player, you'll have to kill play.

I once umpired a LL Big League (17-18) baseball state tournament game, and I was U2. The batter hit a fly ball deep into the left-center field gap. F7 and F8 were both running for the ball, and collided pretty significantly with each other. I chased, and when I saw the collision, I didn't kill play, even though both fielders were writhing on the ground. By the time F6 went out to retrieve the ball at the fence, the BR had scored an inside-the-parker.

The defensive manager, after going to check on his players, one of whom had to be taken out of the game, chastised me for not killing play right away. He felt I should have called Time so that his players could be tended to immediately. I replied, "Coach, what good would it have done for you to get out there 15-20 seconds sooner?"

[RKBUmp]

An example of play that appears to have been killed immediately with ball still live and in the air and a runner who could be doubled out at 1st. Is waiting 10 seconds for the play to complete going to make a difference?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL9zfjvgE_4

[MD Longhorn]

Based on my experience in multiple sports, I'd say that it's MORE dangerous to try to kill a play in the middle - some hear you, some don't. And having half of the players playing and half not creates a more dangerous atmosphere (generally) than just letting the play finish on its own.

[DaveASA/FED]

My personal opinion is I would kill it in that play you see in the video. Will it make a difference? I'm not a doctor, but I have been a volunteer EMT for 20+ years and when I'm in the witness chair I want to say I killed the play immediantly to get that player medical care ASAP. Will 10 seconds make a difference in treatment for her swelling on the brain? Maybe, maybe not the "golden hour" might not be impacted....but it might make a difference again when I'm sitting in the witness chair and I killed it immidentaly vs 10-60 seconds later. In this play you have the ability to really time it...but what if they tried to double off R1 on 1B and it was an overthrow and you ended up moving on to 3B could be an extra minute or two right??

Ok the above is after reviewing the video and being able to think about what I would do....bottom line is in a game setting I would react to that impact and kill it right away out of reaction, not necessarly well thought out on purpose!! Again I agree with those that say anything that could be life threatening head, chest etc I'm killing it. I will discuss that with a coach ANYTIME over discussing it with a grieving parent. Again I'd rather have to award bases or outs vs have to explain why I didn't let medical attention get to a player with a life threatening injury ASAP. Just my opinion.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

We had this situation today (JV game), luckily the player was able to return for the second game of the DH.

F1 throws the pitch which is lined back up the middle hitting the pitcher in the leg before bouncing into foul territory beyond first base. The pitcher immediately crumples to the ground, grabbing her leg. The batter runner, seeing the ball bounce away rounds first and heads standing into second.

Should the umpires have killed the play as soon as the ball hit the pitcher and bounded away? Should we have let play continue until all playing action stopped before killing play?

We let the play continue and killed it as soon as the runner stopped at second base.

My thinking on this is that the ball hit the lower leg of the pitcher, not the head, neck, or chest area. As such, the risk of a serious injury is limited compared with a hit to the above mentioned areas.

Under the rules, we can kill the play and award the bases we feel the batter runner and runners would have reached had the play not been stopped correct?

What would you do in a similar situation?

Last week I did what you did, left the pitcher holding her knee and crying, finished the play, then called time.
Then ejected the coach who ran "onto the field from the dugout or bleachers to tend to the injured player" during the play screaming at me.

Should the umpires have killed the play as soon as the ball hit the pitcher and bounded away?
No, unless immediate medical might be needed.

Should we have let play continue until all playing action stopped before killing play?
Yes, unless immediate medical might be needed.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

My personal opinion is I would kill it in that play you see in the video. Will it make a difference? I'm not a doctor, but I have been a volunteer EMT for 20+ years and when I'm in the witness chair I want to say I killed the play immediantly to get that player medical care ASAP. Will 10 seconds make a difference in treatment for her swelling on the brain? Maybe, maybe not the "golden hour" might not be impacted....but it might make a difference again when I'm sitting in the witness chair and I killed it immidentaly vs 10-60 seconds later. In this play you have the ability to really time it...but what if they tried to double off R1 on 1B and it was an overthrow and you ended up moving on to 3B could be an extra minute or two right??

Ok the above is after reviewing the video and being able to think about what I would do....bottom line is in a game setting I would react to that impact and kill it right away out of reaction, not necessarly well thought out on purpose!! Again I agree with those that say anything that could be life threatening head, chest etc I'm killing it. I will discuss that with a coach ANYTIME over discussing it with a grieving parent. Again I'd rather have to award bases or outs vs have to explain why I didn't let medical attention get to a player with a life threatening injury ASAP. Just my opinion.

Dave is correct. Life threatening injuries require the ball to be killed immediately.

I have taught my new basketball officiating students to kill the ball immediately when it is a head, neck, or back injury. Injuries to the shoulder, arm, hand, legs, and feet are injuries are the type that one can use his or her judgment as to when to kill the ball. BUT, the head, neck, or back injuries are the ones that need to be killed immediately; I would had another injury that in both large ball and small ball games where we should kill line shots to the chest that cause the player to do down. This type of injury can be catastrophic.

Always (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) error on the side of caution.

MTD, Sr.

[3afan]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Even in that situation, IMMEDIATE medical attention isn't going to happen immediately. How quickly will a trainer run out there, if he/she is even at the park?

had a recent HS game, I was 3B ump ... line drive hit pitcher in the face ... PU immediately killed it ... trainer was on top of the girl in maybe 5 seconds, tops

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by LIUmp

Of course you did. Why am I not surprised?

Based on your situations so far in the past week alone, when I see your name on my schedule, I'd run for the hills knowing full well what nuttiness I'd be up against.

Tell me about it. I feel like running for the hills on my own now with the nuttiness that has happened. Maybe stuff like this doesn't happen in Varsity ball, so maybe I just need to move up to Varsity to avoid the nuttiness.

Actually, despite the nuttiness I really do like doing JV ball rather than Varsity.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Last week I did what you did, left the pitcher holding her knee and crying, finished the play, then called time.
Then ejected the coach who ran "onto the field from the dugout or bleachers to tend to the injured player" during the play screaming at me.

Should the umpires have killed the play as soon as the ball hit the pitcher and bounded away?
No, unless immediate medical might be needed.

Should we have let play continue until all playing action stopped before killing play?
Yes, unless immediate medical might be needed.

Given the circumstances of an obviously injured player, I'm not sure I would have ejected the coach, even if the rules do allow for it. I guess that is a HTBT to see what the coach was really doing to see if I would have ejected the coach.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Given the circumstances of an obviously injured player, I'm not sure I would have ejected the coach, even if the rules do allow for it. I guess that is a HTBT to see what the coach was really doing to see if I would have ejected the coach.

Ran on the field ... maybe no ejection.
...screaming at me ... definite ejection.