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Old Sat Nov 04, 2017, 03:37pm
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New Rule 4-48 and a Visiting Team Scorer at the Table

Question arose today on a visiting team scorer at the table who had to be warned not to comment on the officials' calls and whether, given the phraseology of 4-34-2 ("Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statistician(s)..."), this justified a 4-48 warning to the coach.
A discussion here from 2009 seemed to suggest a consensus that a visiting team scorer at the table isn't "bench personnel" in the 4-34-2 sense, but not exactly the same as the (2-1-2) "official timer and scorer" either. If removal is needed, it's not a technical situation, rather a game management issue to resolve upon the officials' request.
Putting all this together, is it correct that a warning to a visiting scorer at the table does not merit a 4-48 warning to the visiting coach?
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Old Sat Nov 04, 2017, 04:09pm
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Just My Strong Opinion ...

I may not have the rules to back me, but if the official scorer, or the official timekeeper, or the visiting scorekeeper, is giving me a problem (acting as a fan for team, not paying attention, not doing their job correctly, etc.), I have no problem asking game management to replace any, or all of them. This is especially the case in nonschool games (AAU, travel, recreation, etc.), but is also the case in school games in which table responsibilities may be fulfilled by students. In a school game with adult table personnel, I may pause before replacing them, and will certainly check with my partner, but I would certainly consider replacing them, maybe not charging any type of technical bench personnel foul, but certainly replacing them; and they can go wherever they want, including their team bench, just not at the table as a member of the officiating team.

Again, I may not have the rules to back me, so chastise me if you must. Let the chastising begin. I'm sure that I will deserve it, and I'm ready to take my punishment.
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Old Sat Nov 04, 2017, 04:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I may not have the rules to back me, but if the official scorer, or the official timekeeper, or the visiting scorekeeper, is giving me a problem (acting as a fan for team, not paying attention, not doing their job correctly, etc.), I have no problem asking game management to replace any, or all of them. This is especially the case in nonschool games (AAU, travel, recreation, etc.), but is also the case in school games in which table responsibilities may be fulfilled by students. In a school game with adult table personnel, I may pause before replacing them, and will certainly check with my partner, but I would certainly consider replacing them, maybe not charging any type of technical bench personnel foul, but certainly replacing them; and they can go wherever they want, including their team bench, just not at the table as a member of the officiating team.

Again, I may not have the rules to back me, so chastise me if you must. Let the chastising begin. I'm sure that I will deserve it, and I'm ready to take my punishment.
BM, thanx for your response, but it didn't address the question. ("Thank you, sir. May I have another?") The question was whether addressing the behavior of a visitors' scorer justifies a 4-48 warning to the head coach. Reference to the praseology of 4-48 and 4-32-4 are significant to the question, so I'll await the time when you have a chance to check those out in your rules book. Then let's see what you say.
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Last edited by Freddy; Sat Nov 04, 2017 at 04:42pm.
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Old Sat Nov 04, 2017, 05:29pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I may not have the rules to back me, but if the official scorer, or the official timekeeper, or the visiting scorekeeper, is giving me a problem (acting as a fan for team, not paying attention, not doing their job correctly, etc.), I have no problem asking game management to replace any, or all of them. This is especially the case in nonschool games (AAU, travel, recreation, etc.), but is also the case in school games in which table responsibilities may be fulfilled by students. In a school game with adult table personnel, I may pause before replacing them, and will certainly check with my partner, but I would certainly consider replacing them, maybe not charging any type of technical bench personnel foul, but certainly replacing them; and they can go wherever they want, including their team bench, just not at the table as a member of the officiating team.

Again, I may not have the rules to back me, so chastise me if you must. Let the chastising begin. I'm sure that I will deserve it, and I'm ready to take my punishment.

Billy:

You are correct. One could and should consider him as an Assistant Scorer and you can and should have him or her removed from the gym by game management if necessary.

MTD, Sr.
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Old Sat Nov 04, 2017, 06:08pm
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Go And Sit On The Cold Bus With The Bus Driver ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
The question was whether addressing the behavior of a visitors' scorer justifies a 4-48 warning to the head coach.
When at the table, he's part of the officiating crew, he's not bench personnel. I won't invoke the "warning" rule. However if I replace him and he moves to the bench, I can whack him to the ends of the Earth (adult personnel can be ejected), no more warning, indirect to head coach, who sits down.
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Old Sat Nov 04, 2017, 06:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
When at the table, he's part of the officiating crew, he's not bench personnel. I won't invoke the "warning" rule. However if I replace him and he moves to the bench, I can whack him to the ends of the Earth (adult personnel can be ejected), no more warning, indirect to head coach, who sits down.

Billy:

If I have to remove Table Personnel that person is not going to remain in building.

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Old Sun Nov 05, 2017, 09:12am
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Incompetent ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
If I have to remove Table Personnel that person is not going to remain in building.
Maybe if he's acting as an unsporting fan, sure, go for it. But if he's just not paying attention, or is incompetent for same other reason, why make him sit on a cold bus with the bus driver?
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Old Sun Nov 05, 2017, 10:21am
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If someone is at the actual table representing the team to verify information to record what is in the scorebook, I am not even considering them in their actions as bench personnel. If they ever cause a problem, I will have them removed. Only twice in my career have I ever had an issue where they left the table and they did it on their own after being admonished for causing issues that had to be addressed with the official book person. I had an incident that the table personnel got in a fight with each other over what was reported. In no way would I ever give a T when someone is sitting at that table. If they are on the bench, that is a different story (which is actually the most common way visitors use that person in games in my experience).

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Old Sun Nov 05, 2017, 10:53am
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I am not whacking table personnel. There is no rules support for that.

Depending on what mood I'm in/how obnoxious the offender is, (s)he might get to go sit in the stands and act like a fanboy (while leaving the book at the table), or I might have him/her removed entirely. If it's the home (official) scorer acting up, I'm likely not waiting for a replacement unless one is available immediately; I'll just make the visiting book the official one and tell the home coach to direct all inquiries to the visiting scorer.
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Old Sun Nov 05, 2017, 11:00am
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Visiting "Scorekeeper" At The Table ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... If they are on the bench, that is a different story (which is actually the most common way visitors use that person in games in my experience).
I'm always surprised (maybe I shouldn't be after twelve years as a Forum member) when I find out how differently things are done in various regions of the country. Not right. Not wrong. Not better. Not worse. Just different.

Here in Connecticut, we have a visiting "scorekeeper" at the table 99% of the time in all scholastic games (middle school, high school freshman, junior varsity, and varsity). 100% at the high school level, even in freshman games.
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Old Sun Nov 05, 2017, 11:02am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
If they are on the bench, that is a different story (which is actually the most common way visitors use that person in games in my experience).
Your games don't have a scorer for the visiting team sitting at the table?

Last edited by SC Official; Sun Nov 05, 2017 at 11:06am.
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Old Sun Nov 05, 2017, 11:04am
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You've Been Drafted ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
If it's the home (official) scorer acting up, I'm likely not waiting for a replacement unless one is available immediately; I'll just make the visiting book the official one.
I done this, not with a home scorekeeper acting up (I've never had one act up, I guess that I've been lucky), but with a home scorekeeper who was not paying attention, or who was incompetent.

2-11: The scorebook of the home team shall be the official book, unless the referee rules otherwise.

This is a good tool to have in our officiating tool belt.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Nov 05, 2017 at 11:13am.
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Old Sun Nov 05, 2017, 11:27am
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Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Your games don't have a scorer for the visiting team sitting at the table? That surprises me.
Many times the only people sitting at the tables which are often small are the timer, scorer the announcer. Many tables are not big enough to have the anyone else sitting there in many cases. Even at the big schools with the better courts and facilities. Both home and visiting teams have someone keeping track of recording of the game with someone on their own bench. It almost never causes an issue because if something is wrong, they inform us and we correct it. Most home books have integrity and if they make a mistake they correct it and it almost never is an issue even during tournaments where there is not "home book" present, the official book is a person assigned by the tournament. The problems I have run into were because they were sitting next to each other and arguing over every detail or what happens. Usually, in my experience, the issue is what is on the scoreboard and what actually happened. Almost never is there a big discrepancy in scorebooks that is brought to our attention. Unless you have a tournament or some big table, the scorebook people sit on the bench for the team or they sit behind the bench. Almost never comes up as an issue anywhere at least in my experience. And this was before and after the rule was changed to have both books were "required" to sit at the table.

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Old Sun Nov 05, 2017, 11:52am
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
And this was before and after the rule was changed to have both books were "required" to sit at the table.
I don't believe the NFHS "requires" the visiting scorer to sit at the table. It might be implied that it's necessary because the scorer is supposed to "compare records with the visiting scorer...", but I don't think anything in the rules would support "forcing" the visiting scorer to sit at the table.

However, if the visiting scorer sits on or directly behind the team bench, I'm likely treating him/her as bench personnel with respect to penalizing unsporting behavior.
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Old Sun Nov 05, 2017, 11:52am
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At the End of the Day...

OK, though the thread took a turn somewhat away from the original question, it looks like we've arrived at a consensus:
Even though Rule 4-34-2 says, "Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, managers(s) and statisticians(s)...", if the behavior of a visiting team scorer seated at the table along with the timer and official scorer needs to be addressed, that does not merit a warning or a technical to the coach under new rule 4-48.
Right?
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