The scorer's table and the referee crew

[bbodb1]

I was part of the official scoring table at a game last night when the following occurred. As the teams were heading on the court for the opening tip, the table was verifying the correct starters were indicated in the book. During that process, we noticed two problems:

1) One of the five players indicated as a starter for the visiting team was not on the floor. A different player was on the floor.

2) The different player (mentioned in 1 above) was NOT in the book.

The table notified the nearest referee as soon as this was noticed - which happened to be just before the tip could be thrown.

The referee then allowed changes to be made to the book with no penalty (no technical) and he said this was allowable since he was informed by the table of this problem before the tip was thrown. Had we (the table) waited until the tip was thrown and then notified the referee crew of the problem, then (and only then) could a technical foul be given.

Is this correct?

Regardless of that answer, this leads to a larger question - how should the table handle situations like this? If one operates under the premise that the table works for the officials, isn't it best to inform the referee crew as soon as a problem is known / detected?

[Raymond]

I was going to respond off the cuff, but I guess the timing of the events is pertinent.

At some point there will be a T for adding that player to the book, unless he is all of a sudden going to go from starting to not playing at all.

I've never thought about the timing of a T for not having the proper starters designated in the book.

[Raymond]

Learned something new today. Here is the case play in regards of when to penalize for incorrect starter being designated:


3.2.2 SITUATION F:

Team A designates No. 32 as a starter by the 10-minute timeframe prior to the game. In (a), as the teams take the floor for the opening jump ball, the scorer recognizes that No. 34 is on court instead of No. 32 for Team A and notifies the officials. In (b), following about two minutes of play in the first quarter, a time-out is called. The scorer notifies the officials that although Team A No. 32 was a designated starter, No. 34 started instead and is still in the game.

RULING: In (a), if Team A’s coach replaces No. 34 for the correct designated starter, No. 32, no penalty is assessed. If Team A’s coach elects to start the game with No. 34 instead of No. 32, a technical foul is assessed to Team A for changing a designated starter. In (b), no penalty is assessed. The infraction had to be discovered and penalized before the ball became live to start the game. Once the ball became live, it was too late to penalize for this specific infraction. (3-2-2a; 10-1-2a Penalty)

[jTheUmp]

This is why I always ask the coaches to double-check the book as part of my pregame meeting (and why my pregame meeting ends before the 10-minute mark).

A couple of things you need to try to figure out:
1) was the correct information supplied to the table prior to the 10-minute mark? If so, it's a bookkeeping mistake, which doesn't warrant or require a T.
2) Did the 'indicated starter' become injured/incapacitated/sick during warm-ups? If so, they can be replaced as a starter without penalty.

"Hey coach, #34 is marked as a starter in the book, but she's not on the floor... she's sick, right?" "Huh?" "Just say 'yes', coach (*wink*)" "Oh... yeah, she's sick, but she'll be better in a minute" "Ok."

[bbodb1]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Learned something new today. Here is the case play in regards of when to penalize for incorrect starter being designated:


3.2.2 SITUATION F:

Team A designates No. 32 as a starter by the 10-minute timeframe prior to the game. In (a), as the teams take the floor for the opening jump ball, the scorer recognizes that No. 34 is on court instead of No. 32 for Team A and notifies the officials. In (b), following about two minutes of play in the first quarter, a time-out is called. The scorer notifies the officials that although Team A No. 32 was a designated starter, No. 34 started instead and is still in the game.

RULING: In (a), if Team A’s coach replaces No. 34 for the correct designated starter, No. 32, no penalty is assessed. If Team A’s coach elects to start the game with No. 34 instead of No. 32, a technical foul is assessed to Team A for changing a designated starter. In (b), no penalty is assessed. The infraction had to be discovered and penalized before the ball became live to start the game. Once the ball became live, it was too late to penalize for this specific infraction. (3-2-2a; 10-1-2a Penalty)

I thought that was the case but I wasn't sure. Thanks for the info BNR.

With that in mind, let me ask this follow up question. What should the table do in this situation - if we are sure of the rule?

Please understand I am NOT asking this question in an attempt to be a referee at the table - should the table (sort of quietly ask) the referee are they sure of the procedure in this situation?

[bbodb1]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

This is why I always ask the coaches to double-check the book as part of my pregame meeting (and why my pregame meeting ends before the 10-minute mark).

A couple of things you need to try to figure out:
1) was the correct information supplied to the table prior to the 10-minute mark? If so, it's a bookkeeping mistake, which doesn't warrant or require a T.
2) Did the 'indicated starter' become injured/incapacitated/sick during warm-ups? If so, they can be replaced as a starter without penalty.

"Hey coach, #34 is marked as a starter in the book, but she's not on the floor... she's sick, right?" "Huh?" "Just say 'yes', coach (*wink*)" "Oh... yeah, she's sick, but she'll be better in a minute" "Ok."

In the situation from last night, there was no pregame conference...
Also, and I hate when coaches do this, a student manager filled out the visitor's roster in the official book.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

...

"Hey coach, #34 is marked as a starter in the book, but she's not on the floor... she's sick, right?" "Huh?" "Just say 'yes', coach (*wink*)" "Oh... yeah, she's sick, but she'll be better in a minute" "Ok."

Even if the coach made a mistake, he has the opportunity to put the correct starter in the game without penalty.

Basically, the penalty for incorrect starters will only occur if the coach is notified of the incorrect starter prior to tip-off and decides to accept the penalty instead of putting the correct starter on the court.

[La Rikardo]

This was handled incorrectly by the referee. For the purpose of penalizing a team for failing to adhere to the provisions in 10-1-2, the team member list submitted by each team more or less becomes "final" ten minutes before the scheduling starting time (except if the team changes a designated starter due to one of the valid reasons given in 3-2-2a).

The officials should be aware of the potential fouls that may occur in this situation as well as when these fouls are penalized. There are two fouls that may occur here. First, there may be a foul for changing a designated starter unless necessitated as in 3-2-2a. This foul is penalized if it is discovered before the ball becomes live to start the game. Second, there may be a foul for adding a name to the team member list. This foul is penalized when the scorer is instructed to add the name to the team member list. Officials should also be aware that even if more than one of the events in 10-1-2 occurs during the game, there can only be one foul.

If the scorer believes that there may be an error in his book, he should notify the officials as soon as possible.

The way this situation should be handled is as follows:

When the scorer alerts the officials that there was a discrepancy in the scorer's book, the referee will determine if the team in question had submitted a list of team members and starters to the scorer separate from the information in the scorer's book. If so, he'll look at that original list to find out if the error(s) in question are reflected in that document as well. If the error was merely a result of an incorrect transcription by the scorer, then changes to the scorer's book in order to correctly reflect the team's provided team member list may be made without penalty. If the referee determines that an individual on the court to start the game was not one of the designated starters, he should also check with the team to determine whether or not they had a valid reason to change the designated starter as in 3-2-2a.

If the referee determines that both of the errors noticed by the scorer were indeed errors made by the visiting team, that team may still avoid a foul altogether by putting the appropriate designated starter on the court to start the game (or any listed team member, if the team has a valid reason to change the designated starter as in 3-2-2a) and removing the individual who had been on the court.

If the team wishes to make this individual a team member at any point following the 10-minute time limit specified in 10-1-1 so that he may become a player during the game (including at this moment, should they desire that he start the game), then his name must be added to the team member list and so a team technical foul will have occurred, as in 10-1-2b. There is no foul when he starts the game, since the team had already been charged with a foul for failing to adhere to one of the provisions in 10-1-2.

If the ball had become live to begin the game, we could not have a foul for changing a designated starter. However, if it is discovered any point during the game at a time when that individual is a player that that individual was not on the team member list, then he must be added to the team member list immediately and so a team technical foul will have occurred, as in 10-1-2b.

In your particular situation, the referee made a serious error in the rules. By allowing the individual in question to be added to the team member list and by allowing that individual to be a starter, the events in 10-1-2a and 10-1-2b have both occurred. The team must be charged with a team technical foul and the game must begin with the penalty for that foul.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bbodb1

I was part of the official scoring table at a game last night when the following occurred. As the teams were heading on the court for the opening tip, the table was verifying the correct starters were indicated in the book. During that process, we noticed two problems:

1) One of the five players indicated as a starter for the visiting team was not on the floor. A different player was on the floor.

2) The different player (mentioned in 1 above) was NOT in the book.

The table notified the nearest referee as soon as this was noticed - which happened to be just before the tip could be thrown.

The referee then allowed changes to be made to the book with no penalty (no technical) and he said this was allowable since he was informed by the table of this problem before the tip was thrown. Had we (the table) waited until the tip was thrown and then notified the referee crew of the problem, then (and only then) could a technical foul be given.

Is this correct?

Regardless of that answer, this leads to a larger question - how should the table handle situations like this? If one operates under the premise that the table works for the officials, isn't it best to inform the referee crew as soon as a problem is known / detected?

He had the timing backwards on the starter change. If it's noticed before the game starts, it's a T (or a chance for the coach to play the proper starter). If it's noticed after the game starts, it's too late.

He's 10 minutes off on the timing for adding a player to the book. Even if you give leeway, just prior to the start of the game, it's too late.

All that said, before issuing the T, I'm going to find out if it was a clerical error by the scorer (maybe he missed a name as he was transcribing from the V book to the H book) or if the coach submitted incorrect and incomplete information.

[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

"Hey coach, #34 is marked as a starter in the book, but she's not on the floor... she's sick, right?" "Huh?" "Just say 'yes', coach (*wink*)" "Oh... yeah, she's sick, but she'll be better in a minute" "Ok."

Why would you MSU when there is a casebook play squarely on point and the coach can simply put the proper starter in?

And I'm not sure why asking a coach to lie would be a good way to start out the game.

Very bad advice IMO.

[La Rikardo]

Originally Posted by bbodb1

With that in mind, let me ask this follow up question. What should the table do in this situation - if we are sure of the rule?

Please understand I am NOT asking this question in an attempt to be a referee at the table - should the table (sort of quietly ask) the referee are they sure of the procedure in this situation?

2-11-2 says one of the duties of the scorer is to notify the nearer official when there is an infraction of the rules *pertaining to submission of the roster, substitutions or numbers of players. IMO, this situation falls under the category of "pertaining to submission of the roster." I would notify the officials that an infraction of the rules has occurred and provide an explanation of what has occurred. It is not the scorer's duty to determine the penalty for that infraction. If you have informed the officials of the infraction, you have done your job. If they botch the enforcement of the penalty for the infraction (or fail to penalize the infraction at all, in your case), then the fault for that mistake lies entirely with them.

[SCalScoreKeeper]

Our job behind the table is to provide information.It's up to the officials on the floor to determine proper enforcement.I may ask something to get the conversation going like-Hey guys isn't that a technical for changing the roster after 10 minutes? But from then on I zip it and let the professionals do what they're trained to do.