6 on the Court -- unnoticed...

[so cal lurker]

NFHS

Blue scores and calls timeout.

Blue comes back onto the court with 6 player. No one notices. Ball is inbounded, Blue steals and scores. White calls time out. Three White coaches come screaming out at the referees that Blue had 6 players.

Is the basket erased?

Can the officials rely on anyone besides themselves to decide there really were 6 on the court?

Can it still be penalized if not noticed by the officials until after the TO is granted?

[Camron Rust]

Too late. Must be discovered while the 6th player is participating.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Too late. Must be discovered while the 6th player is participating.

Correct response from Camron. The wording used in the penalty section of the rule is "penalized if discovered while being violated." That means the officials notice it while the ball is live.

Additionally, here is the Case Book play supporting that. Note that after time expires it is too late to penalize this not because the game is over, but because the ball has become dead.

10.2.2 SITUATION:

With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is called. A6 *properly reports and enters the game. Time is then called by Team A. The clock shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in, the officials: (a) recognize that A has six players competing, but cannot get the clock stopped; or (b) do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had six players on the court.

RULING: In (a), since one of the officials had knowledge that Team A had six players participating simultaneously and this was detected prior to time expiring, a technical foul is assessed against Team A. In (b), since it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Correct response from Camron. The wording used in the penalty section of the rule is "penalized if discovered while being violated." That means the officials notice it while the ball is live.

Additionally, here is the Case Book play supporting that. Note that after time expires it is too late to penalize this not because the game is over, but because the ball has become dead.

10.2.2 SITUATION . . .

The bold/underlined text above is what I'm having a struggle with. It's not real clear that the conclusions stated can be supported by either logic or reason or common sense or the rule or casebook. Not trying to be obstinate, just trying to understand. Any help?

[Bad Zebra]

No, No, and No.

Once the TO is granted, the offending act in question is no longer occurring.

[so cal lurker]

Thanks all, that's what I thought -- but I'm biased as my son was playing.

In case anyone is interested in where the question came from, this was in the final minute of a 2 pt game in a tournament elimination bracket. The basket (which was erased) would have tied the game. (I don't know who they relied on to decide that there were 6 on the floor -- it might have been the scorer, it might have been the tournament official who came onto the floor. Or perhaps they saw that there were 6 walking off the court after the TO.)

While I thought that was the technical answer, it's hard to complain too much about the ultimate fairness, as my son's team did have 6 on the floor, and its hard to argue the steal was not aided by the extra player.

[Bad Zebra]

Unfortunate all around. It was handled incorrectly after the fact AND it was 100% preventable by the officials...counting the bodies on the floor every inbound is pretty much Officiating 101.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

Unfortunate all around. It was handled incorrectly after the fact AND it was 100% preventable by the officials...counting the bodies on the floor every inbound is pretty much Officiating 101.

I agree it is preventable by the officials, but it is also preventable by the teams. Often this happens when teams are confused and think something has happen or did not happen and they come onto the floor at the time we have already done our job. So yes, we need to take our times, but the teams are to blame if they do not have the right number of players on the court. It occasionally happens at all levels for that reason.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

Thanks all, that's what I thought -- but I'm biased as my son was playing.

In case anyone is interested in where the question came from, this was in the final minute of a 2 pt game in a tournament elimination bracket. The basket (which was erased) would have tied the game. (I don't know who they relied on to decide that there were 6 on the floor -- it might have been the scorer, it might have been the tournament official who came onto the floor. Or perhaps they saw that there were 6 walking off the court after the TO.)

While I thought that was the technical answer, it's hard to complain too much about the ultimate fairness, as my son's team did have 6 on the floor, and its hard to argue the steal was not aided by the extra player.

Even if they noticed the 6 players on the court before any time-out was granted, you still cannot erase the basket unless they are playing under NBA rules.

[BillyMac]

Here is the rule that it’s based on: NFHS 10-1-6: A team shall not: Have more than five team members participating simultaneously. If discovered while being violated.

Here are some situations:

A) Head coach of Team B requests, and is granted, a timeout, at which point he immediately complains to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. The sole purpose of his timeout is to call attention to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. Officials, who have been unaware that six team members have been participating up until that point, count six Team A members on the court before they head into their timeout huddle. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call? (Please note that this is not during an intermission, like the caseplay, but is during a timeout.)

B) Team B head coach yells to nearest official that there are six Team A players participating. Official sounds whistle to stop the action to count the players and discovers that there are six Team A team members on the court during this dead ball, clock stopped, situation. What's the call?

C) Team A has six team members participating, which goes unobserved by the officials. Official calls a travel violation on Team A. There are no substitutions after the whistle. Before administering the throw in, officials observe that Team A has six team members participating. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

D) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. Before bouncing the ball to the free thrower for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

E) The last Team A free throw attempt is successful. The clock hasn't started. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

F) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. After bouncing the ball to the free thrower, and with the ball at the free thrower's disposal for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is live, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

G) Team A scores a field goal. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is running. What’s the call?

What does participating mean?

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

What does participating mean?

I've been searching for some solid documentation that verifies that "participating" only applies when the ball is live. As in, a team cannot be penalized unless the six players on the court was discovered only while the ball is live. If discovered while the ball is dead, there's no penalty.

To press that interpretation into all the rules where "participation" is mentioned seems to stretch the rule beyond it's intent. 10-4-1, for instance. Or 3-1-1 NOTE, or 4-14-1, or 10-1-1, or 10-3-1. All of those penalties would surely be enforced if discovered being done by a player on the court during a dead ball after any period of live ball action, it seems. Right?

There was an old casebook citation, 10.5.3, which gives credence to "no penalty UNTIL the ball becomes live", but it leaves room for issuing a penalty during a dead ball after that point, it seems:

10.5.3 SITUATION: A5 has just received his/her fifth foul of the game. A5 (a) is erroneously permitted to remain in the game for
another two minutes before the scorer realizes the mistake; or (b) leaves the game after the coach is notified of the
disqualification. At the intermission between the third and fourth quarter, A5 reports as a substitute and subsequently enters the
game. RULING: In (a), as soon as the error is discovered, the player is removed from the game, no penalties are assessed. In
(b), A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes live. If detected prior to the ball becoming live, A5 would be directed
to the bench and no penalty assessed unless the official deemed it was a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules. If detected
after the ball becomes live, it is a technical foul charged directly to the head coach resulting in the loss of coaching-box
privileges. The player is immediately removed from the game and Team B is awarded two free-throws and the ball. (2-11-5 Note
2)

[Raymond]

My only problem with the thread was your focus on exam questions instead of coming to a conclusion about your options on the floor.

You had already established long ago, and nobody disputed you, that participating was not fully defined the rulebook

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

My only problem with the thread was your focus on exam questions instead of coming to a conclusion about your options on the floor.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If the actual (but quite rare) situation ever occurred on the court, I hope that I would interpret it the correct way, practically, and by the rulebook (they're not necessarily mutually exclusive).

If there was a "correct" way? Stupid NFHS rules editors.

Every call that we make should be (if possible) rule based (as if on a written exam). If not, it will be difficult for us to defend our calls when we get the phone call from our assigner early the following morning. When a coach loses a last second, one point game because (in his mind, forget about the missed layups, stupid fouls, bad coaching) the official "blew the call" (especially an unambiguous rule based call, not a subjective call) the situation can very quickly go up and down the chain of command: coach, athletic director, assigner, official. If the call was contrary to an unambiguous rule (not a subjective call) it will be a tough phone call to go along with our first cup of coffee in the morning.

Here's a typical written exam situation (rare, but it really happened). Several years ago, a conference championship game, one of our guys (trained by us, transferred to another board) who I worked with a dozen times, and whom I believed was an excellent official, when informed, while in the locker room immediately after the game (after leaving the vicinity of the court), that there was a scoring error and that the game was not a one point victory but should have gone into overtime, came back out to toss the jump ball for the overtime, that reversed the victory to the other team. It was more than phone calls, it made the front pages of various newspaper sports sections, naming the official, all over our small state.

The moral of the story, if possible, don't make up rules as you go along.

I hate "kicked" (unambiguous rule based, not subjective) rules, especially when I kick a rule, or the kicked rule involves me. I'm sure that we all do. From March, 2017:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

My worst call of the season, and it wasn't even my call. Late in a game my partner (a highly regarded state tournament official) kicks a rule regarding a double free throw violation and how to penalize the violation. I wasn't aware of his call, because I was keeping my eye on my own primary, but I could tell from his voice and body language that he was only 95% certain of the call, especially in his dealing with two questions from the coach. After the game, discussing the call, we discovered that he kicked the rule, costing the losing team (in an overtime game) a free throw, maybe two free throws, and the arrow, near the end of regulation. I should have approached him with a "What did you have?" which would have saved us from kicking the rule. Instead, I just let him make his call, make his explanation to the coach, and I just put the ball in play as if he knew 100% what he was doing. The losing coach politely approached us in the locker room after the game with a question and we had to admit that we kicked the call ... I could have been a better partner.

[BillyMac]

I'm now going to attempt to answer my own questions from an earlier post. This is the best I can do without an unambiguous NFHS definition of participating. My answers are based on what I've learned from this thread.

A) Head coach of Team B requests, and is granted, a timeout, at which point he immediately complains to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. The sole purpose of his timeout is to call attention to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. Officials, who have been unaware that six team members have been participating up until that point, count six Team A members on the court before they head into their timeout huddle. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call? (Please note that this is not during an intermission, like the caseplay, but is during a timeout.)

No team technical foul. The ball is dead, and clock is stopped. The six team members are not participating.

B) Team B head coach yells to nearest official that there are six Team A players participating. Official sounds whistle to stop the action to count the players and discovers that there are six Team A team members on the court during this dead ball, clock stopped, situation. What's the call?

No team technical foul. The ball is dead, and clock is stopped. The six team members are not participating.

C) Team A has six team members participating, which goes unobserved by the officials. Official calls a travel violation on Team A. There are no substitutions after the whistle. Before administering the throw in, officials observe that Team A has six team members participating. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

No team technical foul. The ball is dead, and clock is stopped. The six team members are not participating.

D) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. Before bouncing the ball to the free thrower for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

No team technical foul. The ball is dead, and clock is stopped. The six team members are not participating.

E) The last Team A free throw attempt is successful. The clock hasn't started. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

I struggle, with this call. Does purpose and intent factor into this? Are six team members participating? It's very similar to G (below) but the clock isn't running.

F) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. After bouncing the ball to the free thrower, and with the ball at the free thrower's disposal for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is live, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

The ball is live. Team technical foul for more than five team members are participating.

G) Team A scores a field goal. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is running. What’s the call?

The clock is running. Team technical foul for more than five team members are participating.

[BillyMac]

Made basket by Team A, immediate time-out by Team A is granted by the officials, officials notice six team members departing the floor for Team A. How do you handle it?

No team technical foul. The ball is dead, and clock is stopped. The six team members are not participating.

Multiple substitutions. All substitutes report and are legally beckoned. Extra team member is confused and stays on court, unnoticed by everybody. Ball put into play. Quick foul occurs. No substitutions. One and one free throws awarded. First free throw made. No substitutions. Extra team member discovered by officials (who don't know when the extra team member entered) during dead ball, clock stopped, after first free throw made while the ball is in the hands of the lead official.

No team technical foul. The ball is dead, and clock is stopped. The six team members are not participating.

I've also learned that individual substitutes who have reported to the scorekeeper and have been beckoned by the officials can't be charged with an individual substitute technical foul for not reporting or not being beckoned, even if more than five team members end up on the court. It's either a team technical foul for more than five team members participating (see previous posts in this thread), or send an extra team member back to the bench, unpenalized.

Also, I've learned that if the table tells the officials that there were six team members participating during a recent live ball, or clock running situation, that it's too late to penalize because the officials themselves must recognize the infraction during a live ball, or clock running situation. I believe that we can't seek help from the table counting players (the officials themselves must recognize the infraction), but that's not the main reason why we can't penalize, it's because it's too late, the ball is now dead and the clock is now stopped.

Not the exact situation (team, not table), but similar:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

10.2.2 SITUATION: With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is called. A6 properly reports and enters the game. Time is then called by Team A. The clock shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in, the officials: (b) do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had six players on the court. RULING: In (b), since it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.