6 on the Court -- unnoticed...

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

No you can't. How do we know who he is? He wasn't noticed until there was a dead ball between free throws, or immediately after a goal. Not reporting and/or not being beckoned is a individual substitute technical not a team technical and must be charged to an individual team member.

10-2 SUBSTITUTE TECHNICAL
A substitute shall not enter the court:
ART. 1 Without reporting to the scorer.
ART. 2 Without being beckoned by an official, except between quarters and
during time-outs.

Also, what did the substitute do wrong? In this multiple substitute situation, all substitutes reported to the scorer, and all were beckoned by an official.

Where's the illegal act for a 10-2 individual substitute penalty?

Nobody entered the court illegally, somebody stayed on the court illegally.

You can't make up stuff as you go along.

You said the 6th player showed up only during dead balls (multiple times according your post), which mean he walked onto the court at some point. Why are players walking on and off the court and you're not noticing?

At some point you need to start officiating and quit letting this stuff happen.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

You said the 6th player showed up only during dead balls (multiple times according your post), which means he walked onto the court at some point. Why are players walking on and off the court and you're not noticing? At some point you need to start officiating and quit letting this stuff happen.

In my hypothetical situation nobody knew when extra player "showed up" (walked onto the court). The extra player was discovered during a dead ball.

It was a hypothetical situation. It didn't happen to me. Probably will never happen to anybody. It was posted to show an extreme example of an extra player discovered during a dead ball and whether, or not, the team should be penalized with a technical foul. I know for sure that we can't penalize an individual player for not reporting and/or not being beckoned because all substitutes reported to the scorer, and all were beckoned by an official. Also, we don't know who the extra player was.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Multiple substitutions. All substitutes report and are legally beckoned. Extra team member is confused and stays on court, unnoticed by everybody. Ball put into play. Quick foul occurs. No substitutions. One and one free throws awarded. First free throw made. No substitutions. Extra team member discovered by officials (who don't know when the extra team member entered) during dead ball, clock stopped, after first free throw made while the ball is in the hands of the lead official.

Officiate basketball long enough (thirty-six years for me) and you'll eventually find yourself with six players on the court no matter how good your mechanics are, and no matter how frequently you check incoming and outgoing substitutes, and count players after intermissions and/or timeouts. When it happens you have to know how to properly penalize it, not just make up stuff as you go along.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In my hypothetical situation nobody knew when extra player "showed up" (walked onto the court). The extra player was discovered during a dead ball.

It was a hypothetical situation. It didn't happen to me. Probably will never happen to anybody. It was posted to show an extreme example of an extra player discovered during a dead ball and whether, or not, the team should be penalized with a technical foul. I know for sure that we can't penalize an individual player for not reporting and/or not being beckoned because all substitutes reported to the scorer, and all were beckoned by an official. Also, we don't know who the extra player was.



Officiate basketball long enough (thirty-six years for me) and you'll eventually find yourself with six players on the court no matter how good your mechanics are, and no matter how frequently you check incoming and outgoing substitutes, and count players after intermissions and/or timeouts. When it happens you have to know how to properly penalize it, not just make up stuff as you go along.

Then what is your confusion about the rule? If discovered during a dead ball, you can't do anything but send the player off. If discovered during a live ball, assess the T.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Then what is your confusion about the rule? If discovered during a dead ball, you can't do anything but send the player off. If discovered during a live ball, assess the T.

don't go down this rabbit hole. it wont end well.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

If discovered during a live ball, assess the T.

I think that we all can agree on that.

Originally Posted by Raymond

If discovered during a dead ball, you can't do anything but send the player off. .

Citation please. You'll probably need a definition of "participating". Good luck with that.

So you're going to ignore the sixth team member in the following scenarios because the ball is dead?

The last Team A free throw attempt is successful. The clock hasn't started. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

Team A scores a field goal. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is running. What’s the call?

Please note that although I'm leaning toward penalizing six team members in some dead ball situations, I'm not 100% sure that I'm correct in doing so, certainly not as sure as some of you are that you can't penalize six team members in all dead ball situations.

Without a NFHS definition of "participating" none of us can be 100% sure what to do unless we make up stuff as we go along, or depend on situations that harken back to jump balls after every goal.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by deecee

don't go down this rabbit hole. it wont end well.

What won't end well? Enforcing the rules as written? That's exactly what officials are instructed to do. The NCAAM even has that as a POE this year.
Your advice continues to be wrong and not worth listening to.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

You'll probably need a definition of "participating". Good luck with that.

Without a NFHS definition of "participating" none of us can be 100% sure what to do unless we make up stuff as we go along, or depend on situations that harken back to jump balls after every goal.

Use the NFHS play rulings and rules which state that a team member participates when the ball becomes live. You are the only one who doesn't agree with that definition.

[scanfocustarget]

A.R. 251 NCAA Men's

Under this Case Book adjudication, it does not follow that you can only penalize the "6 players on court" infraction while the ball is live.

I don't have access to PDF so I cannot copy/paste the entire play (it's a bit long to type), but please look this adjudication up.

Also, per the notes on this case play:

".... The penalty of Rule 10-2.6 applies only when the sixth player participates when the ball is live. There is no time limit within which the officials have to recognize and penalize the infraction. However, the officials must see the violation occur or have personal knowledge that it did occur in order to penalize this infraction. A monitor may not be used to obtain such knowledge."

Use your best judgment. If a timeout was called and you immediately notice 6 are walking toward the bench, in most scenarios you can probably deduce with high certainty that there were 6 guys on the floor. For me, personally, that is enough personal knowledge to administer the technical.

Edit: I don't have NFHS case book in front of me, but perhaps comparable adjudication is therein.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

What won't end well? Enforcing the rules as written? That's exactly what officials are instructed to do. The NCAAM even has that as a POE this year.
Your advice continues to be wrong and not worth listening to.


Use the NFHS play rulings and rules which state that a team member participates when the ball becomes live. You are the only one who doesn't agree with that definition.

You're like that uncle that everyone wishes won't show up to family events.

[Nevadaref]

Says the little kid who constantly misbehaves and has to be spanked.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

What won't end well? Enforcing the rules as written? That's exactly what officials are instructed to do. The NCAAM even has that as a POE this year.
Your advice continues to be wrong and not worth listening to.

I may be mistaken but I don't believe Raymond's comment was in reference to how to enforce the rules but in following the thread that as it was going.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by scanfocustarget

A.R. 251 NCAA Men's

Under this Case Book adjudication, it does not follow that you can only penalize the "6 players on court" infraction while the ball is live.

I don't have access to PDF so I cannot copy/paste the entire play (it's a bit long to type), but please look this adjudication up.

Also, per the notes on this case play:

".... The penalty of Rule 10-2.6 applies only when the sixth player participates when the ball is live. There is no time limit within which the officials have to recognize and penalize the infraction. However, the officials must see the violation occur or have personal knowledge that it did occur in order to penalize this infraction. A monitor may not be used to obtain such knowledge."

Nice that the NCAA clearly states in the case play that participation is when the ball is live. Of course, the NFHS does the same thing, but that isn't good enough for BillyMac. He wants it defined within the rules book.

Additionally, our point of contention in this thread involves when this action may be penalized under NFHS rules. The NFHS specifies that it must be while being violated. The NCAA rule is obviously different, and perhaps better, in that it puts no time limit upon the officials to recognize the infraction. The NFHS rule isn't written that way.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by scanfocustarget

NCAA

I'm not an NCAA official, but I did find this (below) on my hard drive (no date, sorry)

NCAA Bulletin
In a recent game, six players participated in the game for one team. Several officials and administrators asked for clarification and we are releasing the following play situation:

SITUATION: Team A has six players on the playing court when the ball is made live with five seconds remaining in the game. A1’s successful field goal attempt is in the air when the time expires ending the game. Immediately after the expiration of time and before the officials have left the playing court, one of the officials observes that Team A had six players on the court when the basket was scored. What is the correct ruling?

RULING: The field goal shall count because A6 became a player when the ball became alive (Rule 3-4.1.c). However, the game has not ended since the officials have not left the court, which ends their jurisdiction and approves the score. The officials should award Team B two free throws and the game will continue with an overtime period if both free throws are successful (Rule 2-4.4, 5-7.7. and 10-2.6).

Further Comment: Rule 10-2.6 requires that the sixth player participate when the ball is alive. There is no time limit within which the officials have to recognize and penalize this technical foul. However, the officials must see the violation occur or have personal knowledge that it did occur in order to penalize the infraction. A monitor may not be used to obtain such knowledge (Rule 10-2.6, 2-13.2 and 5-7.7).

Hopefully this clarification will assist officials with the understanding and application of these rules. Thank you for your attention to this information.

At the very least, this should emphasis why officials must take their time, and do everything that they can possibly do, using good mechanics, to prevent situations like these from happening.

[BillyMac]

(2011-12)10.2.2 SITUATION: During a live ball and with the clock running, substitute A6
enters the court. RULING: A technical foul is charged if recognized by an official
before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball.

10.5.3 SITUATION: A5 has just received his/her fifth foul of the game. A5 (a) is erroneously permitted to remain in the game for another two minutes before the scorer realizes the mistake; or (b) leaves the game after the coach is notified of the disqualification. At the intermission between the third and fourth quarter, A5 reports as a substitute and subsequently enters the game. RULING: In (a), as soon as the error is discovered, the player is removed from the game, no penalties are assessed. In (b), A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes live. If detected prior to the ball becoming live, A5 would be directed to the bench and no penalty assessed unless the official deemed it was a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules. If detected after the ball becomes live, it is a technical foul charged directly to the head coach resulting in the loss of coaching-box privileges. The player is immediately removed from the game and Team B is awarded two free-throws and the ball. (2-11-5 Note 2)

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I think that we all can agree on that.


Citation please. You'll probably need a definition of "participating". Good luck with that.

So you're going to ignore the sixth team member in the following scenarios because the ball is dead?

The last Team A free throw attempt is successful. The clock hasn't started. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

Team A scores a field goal. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is running. What’s the call?

Please note that although I'm leaning toward penalizing six team members in some dead ball situations, I'm not 100% sure that I'm correct in doing so, certainly not as sure as some of you are that you can't penalize six team members in all dead ball situations.

Without a NFHS definition of "participating" none of us can be 100% sure what to do unless we make up stuff as we go along, or depend on situations that harken back to jump balls after every goal.

It most cases, if I saw this type of activity (6 players on court) during a dead ball, I would simply wait until the ball became live and then assess the T. Sometimes, and by that I mean rarely, it is best/easiest to adjudicate something that everyone would easily understand. After a made basket, the ball is dead. Think of the difference between blowing the whistle then and dealing with the 6 players (T or not?, explain to both coaches, get crew together, etc.) or waiting 1 second for an inbounder to get the ball making the ball live and then blowing the whistle. In the latter, everyone knows that a T is warranted and the adjudication is much easier. Not saying it is the absolute correct thing to do. Just thinking that after a made basket an official would have to be very quick to notice 6 players on the court before the ball is live. Unlikely to happen but if it did happen, then the patient whistle until the ball is live might be best for everyone.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Nice that the NCAA clearly states in the case play that participation is when the ball is live.

I liked it also until I noticed the "exception":

"However, the officials must ... have personal knowledge that it did occur in order to penalize this infraction".

To me, this means that even though the ball may now be dead, if the officials were certain that there were six playing when the ball was live immediately preceding the dead ball, they can still penalize.

Again, I'm not an NCAA official, and it still doesn't help us with a NFHS interpretation.