Held Ball Signal

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... And if you have a dueling signal, then you go with what happened first. We make the simple things so complicated some times.

Agree. At least once, or twice, each season I'm involved with different signals with one official showing the held ball signal. It's real easy to get together to discuss it. "I saw your held ball, but my foul came before the held ball". Or, "I saw your foul, but my held ball came before the foul".

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree. At least once, or twice, each season I'm involved with different signals with one official showing the held ball signal. It's real easy to get together to discuss it. "I saw your held ball, but my foul came before the held ball". Or, "I saw your foul, but my held ball came before the foul".

And it's just as easy to do what's mentioned above and not have to have the conversation at all. Shrug.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich

And it's just as easy to do what's mentioned above and not have to have the conversation at all.

Eye contact (and body language) can go a long way, it's, literally, a part of every pregame (sometimes it's the only part) I've been involved with over the past thirty-six years, but sometimes you just have to converse.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

And it's just as easy to do what's mentioned above and not have to have the conversation at all. Shrug.

I have seen officials do just what you said and it was clear by other body language they were thinking through what they were going to call. If you give one signal, there is no question why you are blowing the whistle. When you give two signals that are associated with two different possible calls, the people watching think you are unsure. Part of our job is to look like we know what we are doing. And not everyone can see or know what you were thinking. But they do see the signal you gave and if it is one signal, there is little doubt.

Peace

[bucky]

A bit off topic but...

I never really understood the stop clock signal (open hand in air). What is the purpose? And if the response if "to stop the clock" well then what is the purpose of the whistle? The whistle is enough.

Furthermore, what is purpose of fist in air for fouls? I think, yes extreme minority I know, that there is no need for any hand/arm in the air at all. Just whistle, followed by mechanic and any necessary verbal info.

Is that a super ridiculous idea?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

Is that a super ridiculous idea?

Why give any signals at all? Sound the whistle and then hand the ball to an inbounder, or bounce it to a free throw shooter. Really? Who else needs to know other than the official? Keep 'em guessing.

Maverick: It's classified. I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bucky

A bit off topic but...

I never really understood the stop clock signal (open hand in air). What is the purpose? And if the response if "to stop the clock" well then what is the purpose of the whistle? The whistle is enough.

Furthermore, what is purpose of fist in air for fouls? I think, yes extreme minority I know, that there is no need for any hand/arm in the air at all. Just whistle, followed by mechanic and any necessary verbal info.

Is that a super ridiculous idea?

More than once I have not heard my partner's (double) whistle, but I've seen his had up -- and that avoided a blarge.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

More than once I have not heard my partner's (double) whistle

I hate it when that happens (usually in a raucous gymnasium). In any possible blocking foul / player control foul, situations, holding my preliminary signal has kept me out of a lot of blarge situations. Someday, and I know that it's eventually going to happen, in my haste, and my partner's haste, to sell our calls with strong preliminary signals, we will eventually have to deal with a double whistle blarge.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

More than once I have not heard my partner's (double) whistle, but I've seen his had up -- and that avoided a blarge.

Why were you looking at him? Weren't you watching your area? If you had a whistle and did not hear his, what would make you stop providing a mechanic? (just kidding about the 2nd question)

Seriously, whistles/mechanics are about communication, nothing more. Whistles involve our sense of hearing while mechanics involve our sense of sight. What is purpose of doing both simultaneously? (blarges and other contradictory signals can't be avoided using either method)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

Whistles involve our sense of hearing while mechanics involve our sense of sight. What is purpose of doing both simultaneously?

As a service to the hearing impaired and the visually impaired?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by bucky

Why were you looking at him? Weren't you watching your area?

Today's quote worth requoting:

You don't have to be looking at something to see it.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bucky

Why were you looking at him? Weren't you watching your area? If you had a whistle and did not hear his, what would make you stop providing a mechanic? (just kidding about the 2nd question)

I look at my partner to see if there's something else -- and it helps me slow down so I don't rush through the rest of the calling sequence.

(And, no I don't do it immediately if there's a chance for some extra-curricular activities between those players involved in the play.)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bucky

Why were you looking at him? Weren't you watching your area? If you had a whistle and did not hear his, what would make you stop providing a mechanic? (just kidding about the 2nd question)

Seriously, whistles/mechanics are about communication, nothing more. Whistles involve our sense of hearing while mechanics involve our sense of sight. What is purpose of doing both simultaneously? (blarges and other contradictory signals can't be avoided using either method)

I do not know about you, but there is this thing called peripheral vision that helps you see many things at once. It is the case you can watch something directly and see something else in another part of your vision. If you could not do this, you probably could not drive or look at a movie very well or officiate with much knowledge as well.

Peace

Originally Posted by bucky

I never really understood the stop clock signal (open hand in air). What is the purpose? And if the response if "to stop the clock" well then what is the purpose of the whistle? The whistle is enough.

Furthermore, what is purpose of fist in air for fouls? I think, yes extreme minority I know, that there is no need for any hand/arm in the air at all. Just whistle, followed by mechanic and any necessary verbal info.

Is that a super ridiculous idea?

I think the NBA has it right. Fist for all fouls, simply whistle and point for OOB. The whistle is enough at the D1 and NBA level, but they use Precision Timing. I don't mind the "stop clock" signal being required at the HS and small college level just in case, but I too think it is superflous.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

I never really understood the stop clock signal ... The whistle is enough.

Granted, it does seem a little bit redundant. Back when I was coaching middle school basketball, we didn't have adults for timekeepers, and scorekeepers. We used students, and it was my job to teach them. The easiest thing to teach? "Stop the clock every time you hear a whistle". Nothing about open hand, closed fist, etc. just, "Stop the clock every time you hear a whistle". Of course, teaching when to start the clock was a little more complicated, but for stopping the clock, "Stop the clock every time you hear a whistle", worked well enough for middle school games.

Going back to the ancient days of NFHS (or whatever) mechanics, there must have been a pretty good reason for the three different stop the clock signals (fouls, violations, held (jump balls back then) balls). I wonder what that reason was? Maybe, the more information communicated to everybody the better? Or, maybe it was considered to be some type of preliminary signal, like we all do for fouls (of course for fouls it would be a preliminary signal to the second preliminary signal)?