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Old Mon Mar 13, 2017, 09:15am
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Girls HS State Final- Missed Foul Video

Can one of the video experts embed the following:

pic.twitter.com/RAscBOooSm

Thanks!

Last edited by VaTerp; Mon Mar 13, 2017 at 03:04pm.
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Old Mon Mar 13, 2017, 12:20pm
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I do not know how to embed the video but I have a foul on 3W as 2R is driving to the basket. Could also go PC on 2R as she extended her hand into 3W before she was fouled but I'm probably passing on that. 2R should have been shooting 2 IMO.
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Old Mon Mar 13, 2017, 12:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nolanjj68 View Post
I do not know how to embed the video but I have a foul on 3W as 2R is driving to the basket. Could also go PC on 2R as she extended her hand into 3W before she was fouled but I'm probably passing on that. 2R should have been shooting 2 IMO.
I agree and that was the consensus- shooting foul on 3W- from officials watching the game.

A couple of things I'd like to discuss once the video is posted and more folks provide input.
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Old Mon Mar 13, 2017, 12:39pm
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Shooting foul on white 3.
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Old Mon Mar 13, 2017, 12:48pm
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A couple of things to consider.

Why do we think the L misses this play? They got a bit straightlined after sprinting to the endline and from their vantage point could see that white was not vertical at first but did not see the contact on the arm.

Are there lessons to be learned here about getting the best look possible as L in transition.

And what about the clock? The officials ended up putting 0.3 on the clock- which became a huge deal. Its impossible to say from this video but I think there definitely should have been more time put on.
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Old Mon Mar 13, 2017, 02:16pm
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You think the play in transition was a miss? I think that was a good play, but I am assuming that is the part you want on the site correct?

I do not know if there is a way to embed twitter videos.




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Old Mon Mar 13, 2017, 02:31pm
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Thanks, JRut. Yes, that is what I wanted posted.

I do think its a miss as White 3 comes across Red's arm, which can be seen clearly at the 20 second mark of the video.

A large group of officials was sitting opposite of the camera angle behind and to the right of red's bench. The consensus was that #3 came across her arm- clearly to most officials with the other view- and should have been called a foul.

Also, there were 42 fouls and 54 FTs shot in this game. So there had been whistles on similar contact all game.

Would it also be possible to embed the video below, which shows the sequence after this when 0.3 was put back on the clock and the potential game winning shot was waived off.

Jamestown boys and King’s Fork girls lose in state title game | WAVY-TV

Thanks!
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Old Mon Mar 13, 2017, 02:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
You think the play in transition was a miss? I think that was a good play, but I am assuming that is the part you want on the site correct?

I do not know if there is a way to embed twitter videos.

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I thought she got in there pretty good and then got arm after...when red tried to force the ball through white's defense towards the hoop. I'm not sure I have a foul in real time on this, either.

L got a late jump down the floor but has a good look on the play.
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Old Mon Mar 13, 2017, 02:58pm
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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
I thought she got in there pretty good and then got arm after...when red tried to force the ball through white's defense towards the hoop. I'm not sure I have a foul in real time on this, either.

L got a late jump down the floor but has a good look on the play.
The L first ran into the media table and lost his balance off camera before getting in pretty good position IMO. Aw well, full disclosure- I am the L here.

I talked to many officials, observers, and evaluators after this game. To a man, they all thought it was a foul.

In real time, it was difficult to see. I'm trying to learn how I could have gotten a more open look.
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Old Mon Mar 13, 2017, 03:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VaTerp View Post
Thanks, JRut. Yes, that is what I wanted posted.

I do think its a miss as White 3 comes across Red's arm, which can be seen clearly at the 20 second mark of the video.

A large group of officials was sitting opposite of the camera angle behind and to the right of red's bench. The consensus was that #3 came across her arm- clearly to most officials with the other view- and should have been called a foul.

Also, there were 42 fouls and 54 FTs shot in this game. So there had been whistles on similar contact all game.

Would it also be possible to embed the video below, which shows the sequence after this when 0.3 was put back on the clock and the potential game winning shot was waived off.

Jamestown boys and King’s Fork girls lose in state title game | WAVY-TV

Thanks!
With .3 on the clock she cannot catch the ball and only a tip would be allowed so no basket is correct.
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Old Mon Mar 13, 2017, 03:24pm
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I think that the timing of the Lead's transition run is excellent. He doesn't bail out on the play at the other end and then hustles down the court in front of the action.

The only issue could be that he may run too far forward once reaching the end line. This would take him past the point from where he has an open look. When anticipating a defender and attacker coming chest-to-chest, I would recommend halting right on the OOB line or perhaps a step inbounds to have the best view of the space between the players.

I will comment that I believe this is a defensive foul, despite the offensive player driving forward, as the arms of the defender are not even close to vertical. I also think that the C has a great look at this and thought that he might come help the crew with a whistle here after the Lead didn't have one. However, I think that he didn't because of how the offensive player came away from the defender into open space with a clear look at the basket. If the player ends up making that short shot, I don't believe that anyone would have any criticism of the officiating. They would be praised for having patient whistles at a critical point in the game.

To the aspect of time left: the ball bounces OOB about 1.4 seconds prior to the horn/red lights. However, by rule, the timer is to stop the clock on the whistle, which comes a bit later--about 0.5 seconds before the red lights. I would have preferred a minimum of 0.4 be restored to the clock because of the NFHS catch and shoot rule. Putting 0.3 back puts the team in a tap only situation.
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Old Mon Mar 13, 2017, 03:53pm
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I think that the timing of the Lead's transition run is excellent. He doesn't bail out on the play at the other end and then hustles down the court in front of the action.
Honestly, I thought initially he missed the rotation at the other end. One the ball goes in the bucket, the new T and L have that covered and he could get down the floor a smidge earlier, I think. With such little time left, it would've been better to receive that play from a stationary position.

But you're right -- he covered the ground well.

It's likely a foul, but I'm trying to give the L the benefit of the doubt. Since he's not giving himself the benefit of the doubt, however....
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Old Mon Mar 13, 2017, 03:54pm
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I think that the timing of the Lead's transition run is excellent. He doesn't bail out on the play at the other end and then hustles down the court in front of the action.

The only issue could be that he may run too far forward once reaching the end line. This would take him past the point from where he has an open look. When anticipating a defender and attacker coming chest-to-chest, I would recommend halting right on the OOB line or perhaps a step inbounds to have the best view of the space between the players.

I will comment that I believe this is a defensive foul, despite the offensive player driving forward, as the arms of the defender are not even close to vertical. I also think that the C has a great look at this and thought that he might come help the crew with a whistle here after the Lead didn't have one. However, I think that he didn't because of how the offensive player came away from the defender into open space with a clear look at the basket. If the player ends up making that short shot, I don't believe that anyone would have any criticism of the officiating. They would be praised for having patient whistles at a critical point in the game.

To the aspect of time left: the ball bounces OOB about 1.4 seconds prior to the horn/red lights. However, by rule, the timer is to stop the clock on the whistle, which comes a bit later--about 0.5 seconds before the red lights. I would have preferred a minimum of 0.4 be restored to the clock because of the NFHS catch and shoot rule. Putting 0.3 back puts the team in a tap only situation.
Not sure how you determined 1.4 seconds but I agree my whistle was late and that we should have put at least 0.4 back on clock.

As for the missed foul, I should have stopped on the endline and perhaps would have had a better look.

I also would have appreciated more help from the C but he said he didnt get a good look either.

Overall feedback was that I had a strong game- my partners not so much. And I don't say that to disparage them. Just being honest about what was said. But this end of game situation is really bothering me. Trying to learn from it and move on but I wish I'd stepped up more in the last sequence. That was communicated as well.
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Old Mon Mar 13, 2017, 04:10pm
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Originally Posted by VaTerp View Post
Not sure how you determined 1.4 seconds but I agree my whistle was late and that we should have put at least 0.4 back on clock.

As for the missed foul, I should have stopped on the endline and perhaps would have had a better look.

I also would have appreciated more help from the C but he said he didnt get a good look either.

Overall feedback was that I had a strong game- my partners not so much. And I don't say that to disparage them. Just being honest about what was said. But this end of game situation is really bothering me. Trying to learn from it and move on but I wish I'd stepped up more in the last sequence. That was communicated as well.
I got my times by using a stopwatch while watching the video multiple times. A luxury which you didn't have.

We agree on where you should have stopped for the best possible look. However, sometimes when sprinting full speed in an effort to hustle and cover the action an official will actually overrun the play and take himself out of position. It is not uncommon. I marvel at how the NBA guys don't do that more frequently in transition given the speed of the players they are observing. Perhaps it has to do with how little space is available to them on the end lines due to cheerleaders, TV cameras, and photographers. They may be conditioned to pull up sooner.

In my opinion, the most important thing you can take from this experience is how the crew handled restoring time to the clock. Given that the NFHS rule has 0.3 seconds as the cutoff for try versus tap, you need to have high certainty when making a decision which is right on that border. As you saw in this game, it can make a major impact. If you have a doubt, then I would recommend erring on the side of at least 0.4 going back up.
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Old Mon Mar 13, 2017, 04:11pm
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Originally Posted by VaTerp View Post
Not sure how you determined 1.4 seconds but I agree my whistle was late and that we should have put at least 0.4 back on clock.

As for the missed foul, I should have stopped on the endline and perhaps would have had a better look.

I also would have appreciated more help from the C but he said he didnt get a good look either.

Overall feedback was that I had a strong game- my partners not so much. And I don't say that to disparage them. Just being honest about what was said. But this end of game situation is really bothering me. Trying to learn from it and move on but I wish I'd stepped up more in the last sequence. That was communicated as well.
I have a mentality on fast breaks as the C -- I sell out and get the best look that I can at the play at the rim. I don't care if it takes me near the end line to get that look.

I don't think the C in your play did that.
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