Missed Foul- (Video Request)

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Rich

I thought she got in there pretty good and then got arm after...when red tried to force the ball through white's defense towards the hoop. I'm not sure I have a foul in real time on this, either.

L got a late jump down the floor but has a good look on the play.

The L first ran into the media table and lost his balance off camera before getting in pretty good position IMO. Aw well, full disclosure- I am the L here.

I talked to many officials, observers, and evaluators after this game. To a man, they all thought it was a foul.

In real time, it was difficult to see. I'm trying to learn how I could have gotten a more open look.

[Nevadaref]

I think that the timing of the Lead's transition run is excellent. He doesn't bail out on the play at the other end and then hustles down the court in front of the action.

The only issue could be that he may run too far forward once reaching the end line. This would take him past the point from where he has an open look. When anticipating a defender and attacker coming chest-to-chest, I would recommend halting right on the OOB line or perhaps a step inbounds to have the best view of the space between the players.

I will comment that I believe this is a defensive foul, despite the offensive player driving forward, as the arms of the defender are not even close to vertical. I also think that the C has a great look at this and thought that he might come help the crew with a whistle here after the Lead didn't have one. However, I think that he didn't because of how the offensive player came away from the defender into open space with a clear look at the basket. If the player ends up making that short shot, I don't believe that anyone would have any criticism of the officiating. They would be praised for having patient whistles at a critical point in the game.

To the aspect of time left: the ball bounces OOB about 1.4 seconds prior to the horn/red lights. However, by rule, the timer is to stop the clock on the whistle, which comes a bit later--about 0.5 seconds before the red lights. I would have preferred a minimum of 0.4 be restored to the clock because of the NFHS catch and shoot rule. Putting 0.3 back puts the team in a tap only situation.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I think that the timing of the Lead's transition run is excellent. He doesn't bail out on the play at the other end and then hustles down the court in front of the action.

Honestly, I thought initially he missed the rotation at the other end. One the ball goes in the bucket, the new T and L have that covered and he could get down the floor a smidge earlier, I think. With such little time left, it would've been better to receive that play from a stationary position.

But you're right -- he covered the ground well.

It's likely a foul, but I'm trying to give the L the benefit of the doubt. Since he's not giving himself the benefit of the doubt, however....

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I think that the timing of the Lead's transition run is excellent. He doesn't bail out on the play at the other end and then hustles down the court in front of the action.

The only issue could be that he may run too far forward once reaching the end line. This would take him past the point from where he has an open look. When anticipating a defender and attacker coming chest-to-chest, I would recommend halting right on the OOB line or perhaps a step inbounds to have the best view of the space between the players.

I will comment that I believe this is a defensive foul, despite the offensive player driving forward, as the arms of the defender are not even close to vertical. I also think that the C has a great look at this and thought that he might come help the crew with a whistle here after the Lead didn't have one. However, I think that he didn't because of how the offensive player came away from the defender into open space with a clear look at the basket. If the player ends up making that short shot, I don't believe that anyone would have any criticism of the officiating. They would be praised for having patient whistles at a critical point in the game.

To the aspect of time left: the ball bounces OOB about 1.4 seconds prior to the horn/red lights. However, by rule, the timer is to stop the clock on the whistle, which comes a bit later--about 0.5 seconds before the red lights. I would have preferred a minimum of 0.4 be restored to the clock because of the NFHS catch and shoot rule. Putting 0.3 back puts the team in a tap only situation.

Not sure how you determined 1.4 seconds but I agree my whistle was late and that we should have put at least 0.4 back on clock.

As for the missed foul, I should have stopped on the endline and perhaps would have had a better look.

I also would have appreciated more help from the C but he said he didnt get a good look either.

Overall feedback was that I had a strong game- my partners not so much. And I don't say that to disparage them. Just being honest about what was said. But this end of game situation is really bothering me. Trying to learn from it and move on but I wish I'd stepped up more in the last sequence. That was communicated as well.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

Not sure how you determined 1.4 seconds but I agree my whistle was late and that we should have put at least 0.4 back on clock.

As for the missed foul, I should have stopped on the endline and perhaps would have had a better look.

I also would have appreciated more help from the C but he said he didnt get a good look either.

Overall feedback was that I had a strong game- my partners not so much. And I don't say that to disparage them. Just being honest about what was said. But this end of game situation is really bothering me. Trying to learn from it and move on but I wish I'd stepped up more in the last sequence. That was communicated as well.

I got my times by using a stopwatch while watching the video multiple times. A luxury which you didn't have.

We agree on where you should have stopped for the best possible look. However, sometimes when sprinting full speed in an effort to hustle and cover the action an official will actually overrun the play and take himself out of position. It is not uncommon. I marvel at how the NBA guys don't do that more frequently in transition given the speed of the players they are observing. Perhaps it has to do with how little space is available to them on the end lines due to cheerleaders, TV cameras, and photographers. They may be conditioned to pull up sooner.

In my opinion, the most important thing you can take from this experience is how the crew handled restoring time to the clock. Given that the NFHS rule has 0.3 seconds as the cutoff for try versus tap, you need to have high certainty when making a decision which is right on that border. As you saw in this game, it can make a major impact. If you have a doubt, then I would recommend erring on the side of at least 0.4 going back up.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

Not sure how you determined 1.4 seconds but I agree my whistle was late and that we should have put at least 0.4 back on clock.

As for the missed foul, I should have stopped on the endline and perhaps would have had a better look.

I also would have appreciated more help from the C but he said he didnt get a good look either.

Overall feedback was that I had a strong game- my partners not so much. And I don't say that to disparage them. Just being honest about what was said. But this end of game situation is really bothering me. Trying to learn from it and move on but I wish I'd stepped up more in the last sequence. That was communicated as well.

I have a mentality on fast breaks as the C -- I sell out and get the best look that I can at the play at the rim. I don't care if it takes me near the end line to get that look.

I don't think the C in your play did that.

[JRutledge]

Breakdown the play:



Peace

[nolanjj68]

VaTerp I missed that foul on my first pass of the video (real-time). Only on the second pass did I see the foul. Don't beat yourself up too much.

[JRutledge]

I do not have a foul on the shot. I have a blocked shot that might have some incidental contact after the ball was contacted. That is not a foul to me and the lead has a great look at it. I have no problem with his angle on the play at all. He is receiving the play as we teach officials to do. He has the best overall angle. The camera angle does not totally help either way if you ask me.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Can someone post the final video after 0.3 seconds has been restored to the clock. For some reason my computer won't play it from the TV station's website.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

Overall feedback was that I had a strong game- my partners not so much. And I don't say that to disparage them. Just being honest about what was said. But this end of game situation is really bothering me. Trying to learn from it and move on but I wish I'd stepped up more in the last sequence. That was communicated as well.

I do think you should have received the play better. You were very wide once on the endline, and your transition was fine. Either way from the L's angle here this could be a tough foul to call in transition and one that the C should be ready to make. I would personally as the C have been at least 5 or so feet onto the court. But for some reason end of game calls/no-calls get disproportionately weighed. I understand the idea of a team having less time to adjust, but the reality is a screw up by us is weighted equal anytime in the game. The fact that there is a countdown just adds to the urgency and "importance" but to me all calls are equal. Team turnovers and decisions play a much larger factor into the outcome.

After all that I though it was a clear foul from the video.