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Ref kills live ball on inadvertent horn - sub?
NFHS:
Official bounces the ball to FT shooter A1, who is shooting his last awarded FT. While A1 has the ball, the clock operator buzzes the horn. All 10 players stop in confusion. C blows his whistle and has the FT shooter give the ball to the L. The clock operator indicates that it was an inadvertent horn. As L, holding ball, prepares to administer the FT, B2 rushes to the table to sub. C blows his whistle and beckons B2 into the game. Legal or illegal substitution? |
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I've killed the ball because of the horn but not allowed the sub in during that dead ball. That isn't your play. Technically, in high school, if i kill it i think i should let the sub in. |
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The sub is neither legal or illegal. If I stopped play because of an inadvertent horn, I would put back the ball in play with the same status of the sub when the horn was blown. So if subs could not come in when the horn went off, I would not allow a sub to come in after I have stopped play. But that is on the officials to ultimately decide. But I believe there is a case play that covers this, but I do not have that in front of me right now.
Peace
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Let us get into "Good Trouble." ----------------------------------------------------------- Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010) |
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I agree with Adam -- if the sub was otherwise allowed, the fact that there was a horn / IW does not restrict the sub. NCAA could be different in the last minute (but not in this specific case, I don't think) |
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But if the situation is also not specifically addressed (if there is no interpretation or rule) then it is up to the officials (or Referee) to make that decision. But I would not allow a team to benefit by the mistake of the table. Peace
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Let us get into "Good Trouble." ----------------------------------------------------------- Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010) |
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(2) There is a specific rule in FED -- something along the lines of "other than the above (e.g., fist of multiple FTs, sub needing to wait for the clock to run), a sub is permitted anytime the ball is dead and the clock is stopped." |
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NCAA Men's A.Rs.
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Ruling: A6 shall not be permitted to enter. While the game clock is stopped after successful field goals in the last 59.9 seconds of play, only those substitutions permitted by rule are allowed. A team may request a timeout and then make substitutions anytime the ball is dead and the game clock is stopped. (Rule 3-6.1.h) A.R. 46 gives a few more situations, but basically does not allow a sub in this situation unless a team requests a timeout. Otherwise, we ignore the horn. Quote:
Peace
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Let us get into "Good Trouble." ----------------------------------------------------------- Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010) |
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Also, we do have the right to ignore the horn. But that requires some judgment or a way to determine that players did not react. I have an older video with a situation where a horn was blown in the Big East Tournament and players hardly reacted. Peace
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Let us get into "Good Trouble." ----------------------------------------------------------- Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010) |
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I also claim that if it *were* an NCAA situation, that the ruling would be the same and that subs would be allowed in. And, I claim that this is covered by rule in both cases and that the official does not have any discretion to "make it fair" (or whatever specific words you used). I also claim that your blanket statement, "The NCAA is specific about the last minute of the game will not allow subs on an inadvertent horn or whistle" is false. There are times -- most times -- where the sub is allowed. If you didn't mean it as a blanket statement, then I post my clarification only for those who might mistakenly read it that way. (And, I'm still waiting for the case play you mentioned back in post #4) |
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Hold your breath. I'm sure the answer is coming. That's if your not dead from hokding your breath about the throw in play that allows defender to stand in certain place. Rip Bob.
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For NFHS the rule is simple and clear. If the clock is stopped and the ball is dead, then a properly reported or reporting substitute shall be allowed into the game, barring the restrictions for multiple throw FTs and previously exiting players when the clock has not yet run.
Preventing a legal substitution in an NFHS contest is just making up your own rules. Quality officials don't do that. |
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In the OP, let's say the sub doesn't make it to the table before we have provided it to the shooter, but the table goes ahead and blows while it is at the disposal of the shooter. I've had vet partners who go ahead and kill it, but don't let the sub in.
Same thing if the sub doesn't get to the table before we hand it to the inbounder and the horn sounds during the inbound, or even right after the inbounds. I've had partners kill the play but not allow the sub. I tend to agree with the thinking behind this; if the sub didn't make it in time, the table can't just blow the horn and stop play whenever they feel like it. This would be ripe for abuse by a friendly home table. While there may not be rules justification for this, it seems to be fair to all parties. In the OP, if it truly was an inadvertent horn, and the coach sneaks a sub up there, I'm fine with that. |
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