Ref kills live ball on inadvertent horn - sub?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bucky

Legal or illegal substitution?

The sub is neither legal or illegal. If I stopped play because of an inadvertent horn, I would put back the ball in play with the same status of the sub when the horn was blown. So if subs could not come in when the horn went off, I would not allow a sub to come in after I have stopped play. But that is on the officials to ultimately decide. But I believe there is a case play that covers this, but I do not have that in front of me right now.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

But I believe there is a case play that covers this, but I do not have that in front of me right now.

Please post it if you find it.

I agree with Adam -- if the sub was otherwise allowed, the fact that there was a horn / IW does not restrict the sub.

NCAA could be different in the last minute (but not in this specific case, I don't think)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Please post it if you find it.

I agree with Adam -- if the sub was otherwise allowed, the fact that there was a horn / IW does not restrict the sub.

NCAA could be different in the last minute (but not in this specific case, I don't think)

The NCAA is specific about the last minute of the game will not allow subs on an inadvertent horn or whistle.

But if the situation is also not specifically addressed (if there is no interpretation or rule) then it is up to the officials (or Referee) to make that decision. But I would not allow a team to benefit by the mistake of the table.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The NCAA is specific about the last minute of the game will not allow subs on an inadvertent horn or whistle.

But if the situation is also not specifically addressed (if there is no interpretation or rule) then it is up to the officials (or Referee) to make that decision. But I would not allow a team to benefit by the mistake of the table.

Peace

(1) I know there's a difference between NCAAM and NCAAW on this (or at least there used to be), but I'm not sure it's not ALL IWs / horns that prohibit subs in the last minute.

(2) There is a specific rule in FED -- something along the lines of "other than the above (e.g., fist of multiple FTs, sub needing to wait for the clock to run), a sub is permitted anytime the ball is dead and the clock is stopped."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

(1) I know there's a difference between NCAAM and NCAAW on this (or at least there used to be), but I'm not sure it's not ALL IWs / horns that prohibit subs in the last minute.

A.R. 45. After a successful field goal with 48 seconds left on the game clock, he timer sounds the game-clock horn for substitute A6 to enter the game.

Ruling: A6 shall not be permitted to enter. While the game clock is stopped after successful field goals in the last 59.9 seconds of play, only those substitutions permitted by rule are allowed. A team may request a timeout and then make substitutions anytime the ball is dead and the game clock is stopped. (Rule 3-6.1.h)

A.R. 46 gives a few more situations, but basically does not allow a sub in this situation unless a team requests a timeout. Otherwise, we ignore the horn.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

(2) There is a specific rule in FED -- something along the lines of "other than the above (e.g., fist of multiple FTs, sub needing to wait for the clock to run), a sub is permitted anytime the ball is dead and the clock is stopped."

I do not totally disagree, just think that this is not a situation that is completely covered under the rules and the Referee can decide what is fair. I think you have to weigh who benefited from this and why they would benefit from this. If we have an IH, I would like to make the situation go back to normal as soon as possible and not allow a sub when we would not have had the horn. If there is a huge delay or something that might have nothing to do with a horn being blown inadvertently, then I would have no issue with the sub. This is why I tell tables to often do not blow the horn at all for subs. They will even blow the horn just because the coach says, "sub sub sub sub" and the player is not off the bench. I am not giving a sub just because the horn was blown. During a FT is a little bit more laid back period, but still want to keep the integrity of the action that took place.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

A.R. 45. After a successful field goal with 48 seconds left on the game clock, he timer sounds the game-clock horn for substitute A6 to enter the game.

Ruling: A6 shall not be permitted to enter. While the game clock is stopped after successful field goals in the last 59.9 seconds of play, only those substitutions permitted by rule are allowed. A team may request a timeout and then make substitutions anytime the ball is dead and the game clock is stopped. (Rule 3-6.1.h)

A.R. 46 gives a few more situations, but basically does not allow a sub in this situation unless a team requests a timeout. Otherwise, we ignore the horn.

yes, but that has nothing to do with the OP. In the OP, even if it happened in the last 59.9, the clock was stopped for the foul / FTs and not for a made basket. All the restrictions on subs surround the made basket in the last 59.9 situations.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

yes, but that has nothing to do with the OP. In the OP, even if it happened in the last 59.9, the clock was stopped for the foul / FTs and not for a made basket. All the restrictions on subs surround the made basket in the last 59.9 situations.

I was only referencing this because you mentioned it. This is also not an NCAA situation. And I think the NCAA has changed a rule and created an A.R in order to address this situation specifically. I am not sure this is addressed in that kind of detail with the NF. I think there was a case play, but I am not sure if it is still valid or in the current books.

Also, we do have the right to ignore the horn. But that requires some judgment or a way to determine that players did not react. I have an older video with a situation where a horn was blown in the Big East Tournament and players hardly reacted.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

... if the sub was otherwise allowed, the fact that there was a horn / IW does not restrict the sub ...

Agree. Unless there is a specific rule, or interpretation, that doesn't allow the substitution (multiple free throws, sit a tick, illegal equipment, etc.), there is no rule that allows an official to not allow a substitute enter the game in the original post situation. If a whistle is sounded, the clock is stopped, and the ball is dead, unless there is a rule that forbids substitutions in that situation, then I'm allowing the substitutes to enter. The rulebook, and case book, specifically, and clearly, tell us when to not allow a substitute to enter. This is not one of those situations.

[Stillblind]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The sub is neither legal or illegal. If I stopped play because of an inadvertent horn, I would put back the ball in play with the same status of the sub when the horn was blown. So if subs could not come in when the horn went off, I would not allow a sub to come in after I have stopped play. But that is on the officials to ultimately decide. But I believe there is a case play that covers this, but I do not have that in front of me right now.

Peace

This came up again tonight. Live Ball, horn, whistle to stop player from traveling. Nothing in the rules book tells me not to allow the subs at the table in.
I’m unable to find the Case Play, but I do believe it’s out there maybe 8 years ago.. any help would be appreciated

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Stillblind

This came up again tonight. Live Ball, horn, whistle to stop player from traveling. Nothing in the rules book tells me not to allow the subs at the table in.
I’m unable to find the Case Play, but I do believe it’s out there maybe 8 years ago.. any help would be appreciated

If you blow the whistle, the subs come in (in NFHS). In NCAA, not so.