Shooting vs. passing after foul

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I hear what your saying and we are on same page for most part but I wouldn't go quite that far. I grew up being told throw ball to rim if you hear whistle. As a player, I don't always hear whistle or process it. I want to make a play. If I'm going up to shoot like kid in layup play two, defender hits me, I know I can't get my shot off so I react at end and dump it. That's all I'm left with. I see play 2 fit that. Play one is a pass to me.

The reason I take this position is because that is what has always worked for me. Never had an issue that I can think of by not awarding shots on a clear pass off. It works for me. I am not telling anyone to do it different. If you make a call, it is your call and you will ultimately have to live with it. On both of these plays, I am calling a common foul. I am good with that choice. If someone wants to award a shot, you are not going to hear my say boo about it.

Peace

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The reason I take this position is because that is what has always worked for me. Never had an issue that I can think of by not awarding shots on a clear pass off. It works for me. I am not telling anyone to do it different. If you make a call, it is your call and you will ultimately have to live with it. On both of these plays, I am calling a common foul. I am good with that choice. If someone wants to award a shot, you are not going to hear my say boo about it.

Peace

Even on the second one?? He has a clear layup. He's going up and guy from behind grabs him. That was never going to be a pass but for the foul. Rule says give him 2 cause foul may prevent ....

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Even on the second one?? He has a clear layup. He's going up and guy from behind grabs him. That was never going to be a pass but for the foul. Rule says give him 2 cause foul may prevent ....

Yes, he passed. If he wants shots, then complete the shot. And if the justification that I am hearing is because he does not know we are going to blow our whistle, that is funny when players think any level of contact entitles them to a foul. So they act like they are fouled all the time. Complete the process and then I will award you without question the shots. If you clearly pass, you are not shooting. And I am not going to try to get deep in your head to figure it out.

Peace

[Amesman]

JRut, I hear you, but if in the second sequence the foulee wasn't going up for a shot (with nobody blocking his path just 3 feet from the basket, mind you), then for me to think he originally was going to pass before the foul, that better be the seriously sick honorary team manager who has just days to live whom he's passing to.

Kids will do stupid things sometimes or make bad assumptions, such as "I might not get the call on that clear shooting foul, so I better dump it off so Coach doesn't get mad at me and take me out."

I'm not penalizing a shooter for passing off after he's fouled in the act of shooting. No matter what he "ought" to have done (i.e. follow through with the shot). The rulebook doesn't say a foul can be called only if there's follow-through on the FGA.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Amesman

JRut, I hear you, but if in the second sequence the foulee wasn't going up for a shot (with nobody blocking his path just 3 feet from the basket, mind you), then for me to think he originally was going to pass before the foul, that better be the seriously sick honorary team manager who has just days to live whom he's passing to.

Kids will do stupid things sometimes or make bad assumptions, such as "I might not get the call on that clear shooting foul, so I better dump it off so Coach doesn't get mad at me and take me out."

I'm not penalizing a shooter for passing off after he's fouled in the act of shooting. No matter what he "ought" to have done (i.e. follow through with the shot). The rulebook doesn't say a foul can be called only if there's follow-through on the FGA.

You want me to award you something, act like you know how it is. Guys, I have seen players throw up shots well after the foul as they think they might get a foul. Real ballers understand this and do whatever they can to get the advantage.

Again, I am not going around telling you are even criticizing you for your call. I might give you information on a clear pass, but if you say that was shooting, you can explain that to the coach. Just like when there is a close play where the coach thinks you should not have awarded shots, you can explain what you saw. I think we are making this too complicated.

Peace

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And if he wants the shot, then do nothing but shoot. Getting fouled and then making that decision after the fact is kind of lame to me. If he did not want anyone to think he was passing, then do not pass. We do not need to make this that complicated.

Peace

This is what I take issue with....you will not give two shots if the ball is ultimately passed. You stated this in the post above and also in response to MD Longhorn. I'm certain you can get away with it but that's not using judgment. It's a way for you to avoid making a judgment. You've created a bright line rule for yourself. That may be best.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

This is what I take issue with....you will not give two shots if the ball is ultimately passed. You stated this in the post above and also in response to MD Longhorn. I'm certain you can get away with it but that's not using judgment. It's a way for you to avoid making a judgment. You've created a bright line rule for yourself. That may be best.

OK, but if you pass the ball or you shoot the ball, I do not have to guess or assume you were doing something else. By your logic, I should not award shots to a player that is in bad positions to shoot, but a pass would have been better right? That is why this is all judgment. And it is no different when I feel a player has gathered the ball and is shooting, but they never get rid of the ball or jump. I use cues of their behavior when they are fouled to make that ruling.

I actually have not created any line for myself. I just think this is not that hard. What you are suggesting seems hard and makes a lot of other assumptions when the players do what they do. Remember, I guess I did not play enough big time basketball to know what a player is ultimately doing.

Peace

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

OK, but if you pass the ball or you shoot the ball, I do not have to guess or assume you were doing something else.

Peace

I agree with you.You are much better off not "guessing." (I consider that thinking). Maybe that should be the rule but it isn't.

Here's what you don't get-If I'm hit and hear a whistle and can react I will always throw the ball up. If I'm hit and don't hear whistle, or just don't process it, I want to win, I will make the next best play. Here, that was a dump. Your penalizing the player for thinking because you don't want to.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I agree with you.You are much better off not "guessing." (I consider that thinking). Maybe that should be the rule but it isn't.

OK, you keep referencing the rule. What does the rule actually say? Since you are so stuck on the rule. Let us see the rule? Because I do not see that I suggested anything the actual rule says.

Peace

[youngump]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

OK, but if you pass the ball or you shoot the ball, I do not have to guess or assume you were doing something else.

Do you apply this in reverse? Player leaves his feet to pass and gets hit so he tosses it up toward the hoop. Shooting foul?