Shooting vs. passing after foul

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I admit the 1st is harder than the 2nd. The inability to pause the video or zoom makes this tough. So I could be wrong. And Arem's angle is probably WAY better than the videographer's angle.

On the 2nd, I firmly believe his partner was right to discard the added information, and don't think this was a case (as one official above stated) of him not wanting to be shown up a 2nd time. It was a case of him being right.

Second play was absolutely a shot. Clearly foul made him change his mind. Info I would give right away is give him two. Going up. Looking at video it would ZnEVER cross my mind to say "he passed ball." Unless I missed the original contact of course.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I can't make you see what I see obviously but the player turns corner and his head is turned back to right entire time. Doesn't look at basket. He passes ball and IMO that was his intent the entire time.

I'm not going to wrestle you over it during game but I think it's an obvious pass. Just what I see.

And if he wants the shot, then do nothing but shoot. Getting fouled and then making that decision after the fact is kind of lame to me. If he did not want anyone to think he was passing, then do not pass. We do not need to make this that complicated.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by AremRed

You can pause the video by clicking on it. Sorry there's no zoom!

Excellent - thanks.

There is a frame in the video where he's facing the basket and both arms/hands are facing the basket as well --- and the defender's hand is on ball. At this moment ... he's shooting. An instant later - the ball is heading toward his teammate BEFORE he starts turning his head.

I'm more convinced now than I was before.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And if he wants the shot, then do nothing but shoot. Getting fouled and then making that decision after the fact is kind of lame to me. If he did not want anyone to think he was passing, then do not pass. We do not need to make this that complicated.

Peace

I understand why you might give benefit of the doubt the way you say you do ... but he's playing ball --- he doesn't KNOW you're going to call the foul, and has to decide before hearing the whistle if he can still shoot or not. I submit to you that there are cases where he knows, after contact but before whistle, that he can no longer shoot ... and the foul CAUSES the pass instead of the shot.

And the 2nd video is an excellent example of this.

[SNIPERBBB]

Habitual start of the shooting motion starts when the player gathers the ball. Its gotta be painfully obvious the player is doing something that is not shooting.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And if he wants the shot, then do nothing but shoot. Getting fouled and then making that decision after the fact is kind of lame to me. If he did not want anyone to think he was passing, then do not pass. We do not need to make this that complicated.

Peace

I hear what your saying and we are on same page for most part but I wouldn't go quite that far. I grew up being told throw ball to rim if you hear whistle. As a player, I don't always hear whistle or process it. I want to make a play. If I'm going up to shoot like kid in layup play two, defender hits me, I know I can't get my shot off so I react at end and dump it. That's all I'm left with. I see play 2 fit that. Play one is a pass to me.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I understand why you might give benefit of the doubt the way you say you do ... but he's playing ball --- he doesn't KNOW you're going to call the foul, and has to decide before hearing the whistle if he can still shoot or not. I submit to you that there are cases where he knows, after contact but before whistle, that he can no longer shoot ... and the foul CAUSES the pass instead of the shot.

And the 2nd video is an excellent example of this.

Then do not pass. It is very simple. You want me to know what is in your head, then do what looks obvious to everyone.

Again, if I am giving shots on plays after the gather and they might not leave the floor or even bring up their arms completely, I am going to not give shots on a clear pass.

Officiating is about survival IMO most of the time. You call what everyone can see. If a coach wants the opposite of everything you see, then I will ask him to tell their player to shoot. If I do not call the foul, then I do not think it was a foul. But a last minute pass to me tells me what you were doing outside of reading your mind, which I cannot do very well. Just ask me fiancée.

Peace

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Excellent - thanks.

There is a frame in the video where he's facing the basket and both arms/hands are facing the basket as well --- and the defender's hand is on ball. At this moment ... he's shooting. An instant later - the ball is heading toward his teammate BEFORE he starts turning his head.

I'm more convinced now than I was before.

I don't use frames often. We don't referee in frames. I think number one is obvious pass watching it live for reasons I've said above. I'm looking st everything, not just arms etc. my arms have to rise to pass. As I said, I'm not going to wrestle you for it unless it is a game changer.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I hear what your saying and we are on same page for most part but I wouldn't go quite that far. I grew up being told throw ball to rim if you hear whistle. As a player, I don't always hear whistle or process it. I want to make a play. If I'm going up to shoot like kid in layup play two, defender hits me, I know I can't get my shot off so I react at end and dump it. That's all I'm left with. I see play 2 fit that. Play one is a pass to me.

The reason I take this position is because that is what has always worked for me. Never had an issue that I can think of by not awarding shots on a clear pass off. It works for me. I am not telling anyone to do it different. If you make a call, it is your call and you will ultimately have to live with it. On both of these plays, I am calling a common foul. I am good with that choice. If someone wants to award a shot, you are not going to hear my say boo about it.

Peace

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The reason I take this position is because that is what has always worked for me. Never had an issue that I can think of by not awarding shots on a clear pass off. It works for me. I am not telling anyone to do it different. If you make a call, it is your call and you will ultimately have to live with it. On both of these plays, I am calling a common foul. I am good with that choice. If someone wants to award a shot, you are not going to hear my say boo about it.

Peace

Even on the second one?? He has a clear layup. He's going up and guy from behind grabs him. That was never going to be a pass but for the foul. Rule says give him 2 cause foul may prevent ....

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I don't use frames often. We don't referee in frames. I think number one is obvious pass watching it live for reasons I've said above. I'm looking st everything, not just arms etc. my arms have to rise to pass. As I said, I'm not going to wrestle you for it unless it is a game changer.

I only looked at it that way because I was unsure ... and honestly, I was looking for a reason to convince myself I was wrong, because pretty much everyone else said I was.

But it seemed to support my initial look (posted way up higher before I figured out you could pause)... that the ball was not passed, but deflected to his teammate during the foul.

[Amesman]

JRut, I hear you, but if in the second sequence the foulee wasn't going up for a shot (with nobody blocking his path just 3 feet from the basket, mind you), then for me to think he originally was going to pass before the foul, that better be the seriously sick honorary team manager who has just days to live whom he's passing to.

Kids will do stupid things sometimes or make bad assumptions, such as "I might not get the call on that clear shooting foul, so I better dump it off so Coach doesn't get mad at me and take me out."

I'm not penalizing a shooter for passing off after he's fouled in the act of shooting. No matter what he "ought" to have done (i.e. follow through with the shot). The rulebook doesn't say a foul can be called only if there's follow-through on the FGA.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Even on the second one?? He has a clear layup. He's going up and guy from behind grabs him. That was never going to be a pass but for the foul. Rule says give him 2 cause foul may prevent ....

Yes, he passed. If he wants shots, then complete the shot. And if the justification that I am hearing is because he does not know we are going to blow our whistle, that is funny when players think any level of contact entitles them to a foul. So they act like they are fouled all the time. Complete the process and then I will award you without question the shots. If you clearly pass, you are not shooting. And I am not going to try to get deep in your head to figure it out.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Amesman

JRut, I hear you, but if in the second sequence the foulee wasn't going up for a shot (with nobody blocking his path just 3 feet from the basket, mind you), then for me to think he originally was going to pass before the foul, that better be the seriously sick honorary team manager who has just days to live whom he's passing to.

Kids will do stupid things sometimes or make bad assumptions, such as "I might not get the call on that clear shooting foul, so I better dump it off so Coach doesn't get mad at me and take me out."

I'm not penalizing a shooter for passing off after he's fouled in the act of shooting. No matter what he "ought" to have done (i.e. follow through with the shot). The rulebook doesn't say a foul can be called only if there's follow-through on the FGA.

You want me to award you something, act like you know how it is. Guys, I have seen players throw up shots well after the foul as they think they might get a foul. Real ballers understand this and do whatever they can to get the advantage.

Again, I am not going around telling you are even criticizing you for your call. I might give you information on a clear pass, but if you say that was shooting, you can explain that to the coach. Just like when there is a close play where the coach thinks you should not have awarded shots, you can explain what you saw. I think we are making this too complicated.

Peace

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Yes, he passed. If he wants shots, then complete the shot. And if the justification that I am hearing is because he does not know we are going to blow our whistle, that is funny when players think any level of contact entitles them to a foul. So they act like they are fouled all the time. Complete the process and then I will award you without question the shots. If you clearly pass, you are not shooting. And I am not going to try to get deep in your head to figure it out.

Peace

The justification is that the rule says the foul may prevent shot. Play two is as clear an example as well ever see. He's grabbed, he can't complete it. All he's left with is dumping. Your answer tells me you've never really played the game at any significant level if you don't understand that. I've been mugged going to hole, going up to shoot bumped behind backboard. All I'm left with is dumping to another player.