Shooting vs. passing after foul

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I can't make you see what I see obviously but the player turns corner and his head is turned back to right entire time. Doesn't look at basket. He passes ball and IMO that was his intent the entire time.

I'm not going to wrestle you over it during game but I think it's an obvious pass. Just what I see.

And if he wants the shot, then do nothing but shoot. Getting fouled and then making that decision after the fact is kind of lame to me. If he did not want anyone to think he was passing, then do not pass. We do not need to make this that complicated.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And if he wants the shot, then do nothing but shoot. Getting fouled and then making that decision after the fact is kind of lame to me. If he did not want anyone to think he was passing, then do not pass. We do not need to make this that complicated.

Peace

I understand why you might give benefit of the doubt the way you say you do ... but he's playing ball --- he doesn't KNOW you're going to call the foul, and has to decide before hearing the whistle if he can still shoot or not. I submit to you that there are cases where he knows, after contact but before whistle, that he can no longer shoot ... and the foul CAUSES the pass instead of the shot.

And the 2nd video is an excellent example of this.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I understand why you might give benefit of the doubt the way you say you do ... but he's playing ball --- he doesn't KNOW you're going to call the foul, and has to decide before hearing the whistle if he can still shoot or not. I submit to you that there are cases where he knows, after contact but before whistle, that he can no longer shoot ... and the foul CAUSES the pass instead of the shot.

And the 2nd video is an excellent example of this.

Then do not pass. It is very simple. You want me to know what is in your head, then do what looks obvious to everyone.

Again, if I am giving shots on plays after the gather and they might not leave the floor or even bring up their arms completely, I am going to not give shots on a clear pass.

Officiating is about survival IMO most of the time. You call what everyone can see. If a coach wants the opposite of everything you see, then I will ask him to tell their player to shoot. If I do not call the foul, then I do not think it was a foul. But a last minute pass to me tells me what you were doing outside of reading your mind, which I cannot do very well. Just ask me fiancée.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Then do not pass. It is very simple. You want me to know what is in your head, then do what looks obvious to everyone.

Again, if I am giving shots on plays after the gather and they might not leave the floor or even bring up their arms completely, I am going to not give shots on a clear pass.

Officiating is about survival IMO most of the time. You call what everyone can see. If a coach wants the opposite of everything you see, then I will ask him to tell their player to shoot. If I do not call the foul, then I do not think it was a foul. But a last minute pass to me tells me what you were doing outside of reading your mind, which I cannot do very well. Just ask me fiancée.

Peace

I'm with Jeff here. First one's definitely on the pass. Second one is not as clear. I'm not going to my partner on this to give additional information. He saw something that made it a shooting foul, that's good enough for me.

Just not that big a deal to me. Line em up, shoot the throws.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Rich

I'm with Jeff here. First one's definitely on the pass. Second one is not as clear. I'm not going to my partner on this to give additional information. He saw something that made it a shooting foul, that's good enough for me.

Just not that big a deal to me. Line em up, shoot the throws.

1st is definitely a pass. Second is clearly a shot. That's what I see based on my history. Official on first may not see all. If I'm providing info I'm doing it right away. "That was a pass." Everybody in the gym should know second was going to be a shot but for the foul.

Again, my history/experience is different than everybody else's. Neither one of thes plays is close to me. One is pass, 2 is shot. This is my opinion. The decisions I'd make. Jeff would decide otherwise. The important thing for me is that neither one of us cares who wins your game. We are doing best we can.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And if he wants the shot, then do nothing but shoot. Getting fouled and then making that decision after the fact is kind of lame to me. If he did not want anyone to think he was passing, then do not pass. We do not need to make this that complicated.

Peace

I hear what your saying and we are on same page for most part but I wouldn't go quite that far. I grew up being told throw ball to rim if you hear whistle. As a player, I don't always hear whistle or process it. I want to make a play. If I'm going up to shoot like kid in layup play two, defender hits me, I know I can't get my shot off so I react at end and dump it. That's all I'm left with. I see play 2 fit that. Play one is a pass to me.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I hear what your saying and we are on same page for most part but I wouldn't go quite that far. I grew up being told throw ball to rim if you hear whistle. As a player, I don't always hear whistle or process it. I want to make a play. If I'm going up to shoot like kid in layup play two, defender hits me, I know I can't get my shot off so I react at end and dump it. That's all I'm left with. I see play 2 fit that. Play one is a pass to me.

The reason I take this position is because that is what has always worked for me. Never had an issue that I can think of by not awarding shots on a clear pass off. It works for me. I am not telling anyone to do it different. If you make a call, it is your call and you will ultimately have to live with it. On both of these plays, I am calling a common foul. I am good with that choice. If someone wants to award a shot, you are not going to hear my say boo about it.

Peace

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The reason I take this position is because that is what has always worked for me. Never had an issue that I can think of by not awarding shots on a clear pass off. It works for me. I am not telling anyone to do it different. If you make a call, it is your call and you will ultimately have to live with it. On both of these plays, I am calling a common foul. I am good with that choice. If someone wants to award a shot, you are not going to hear my say boo about it.

Peace

Even on the second one?? He has a clear layup. He's going up and guy from behind grabs him. That was never going to be a pass but for the foul. Rule says give him 2 cause foul may prevent ....

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Even on the second one?? He has a clear layup. He's going up and guy from behind grabs him. That was never going to be a pass but for the foul. Rule says give him 2 cause foul may prevent ....

Yes, he passed. If he wants shots, then complete the shot. And if the justification that I am hearing is because he does not know we are going to blow our whistle, that is funny when players think any level of contact entitles them to a foul. So they act like they are fouled all the time. Complete the process and then I will award you without question the shots. If you clearly pass, you are not shooting. And I am not going to try to get deep in your head to figure it out.

Peace

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Yes, he passed. If he wants shots, then complete the shot. And if the justification that I am hearing is because he does not know we are going to blow our whistle, that is funny when players think any level of contact entitles them to a foul. So they act like they are fouled all the time. Complete the process and then I will award you without question the shots. If you clearly pass, you are not shooting. And I am not going to try to get deep in your head to figure it out.

Peace

The justification is that the rule says the foul may prevent shot. Play two is as clear an example as well ever see. He's grabbed, he can't complete it. All he's left with is dumping. Your answer tells me you've never really played the game at any significant level if you don't understand that. I've been mugged going to hole, going up to shoot bumped behind backboard. All I'm left with is dumping to another player.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

The justification is that the rule says the foul may prevent shot. Play two is as clear an example as well ever see. He's grabbed, he can't complete it. All he's left with is dumping. Your answer tells me you've never really played the game at any significant level if you don't understand that. I've been mugged going to hole, going up to shoot bumped behind backboard. All I'm left with is dumping to another player.

And still a judgment call. You make the ruling you want to make. I am not against what you saw. I am telling you what I am going to do.

Actually I did play. I played a lot. I have also officiated some time and players often assume they are fouled or flailing after any contact all the time, even when they are not even fouled. So if this player passed, then that is what he is doing. It is not that hard man!!!

I think some of you want to prove you know the rule and that is the basis for many of these conversations. Because I rarely ever see someone award shots on a clear pass. Heck we have a hard time seeing officials award shots when they were shooting and love to say, "On the floor" if the players did not jump yet.

Peace

[Adam]

We want players to play through contact because we may not consider it a foul. Good players learn how to adjust to contact, and they learn to do it quickly. When a shooter gets fouled, our whistles are often a bit late (for good reason). I'm not going to penalize a player for adjusting to contact that I may or may not call a foul.

I'm not saying the whole play doesn't matter. On the first video, I'm probably not giving free throws, but I'm also not approaching my partner if he makes the call and judges it differently. I don't approach partners on judgment calls, and this is pure judgment.

Passing the ball after a foul does not necessarily negate the fact that I thought it was a shot.

I recognize others see this differently.

[Amesman]

JRut, I hear you, but if in the second sequence the foulee wasn't going up for a shot (with nobody blocking his path just 3 feet from the basket, mind you), then for me to think he originally was going to pass before the foul, that better be the seriously sick honorary team manager who has just days to live whom he's passing to.

Kids will do stupid things sometimes or make bad assumptions, such as "I might not get the call on that clear shooting foul, so I better dump it off so Coach doesn't get mad at me and take me out."

I'm not penalizing a shooter for passing off after he's fouled in the act of shooting. No matter what he "ought" to have done (i.e. follow through with the shot). The rulebook doesn't say a foul can be called only if there's follow-through on the FGA.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Amesman

JRut, I hear you, but if in the second sequence the foulee wasn't going up for a shot (with nobody blocking his path just 3 feet from the basket, mind you), then for me to think he originally was going to pass before the foul, that better be the seriously sick honorary team manager who has just days to live whom he's passing to.

Kids will do stupid things sometimes or make bad assumptions, such as "I might not get the call on that clear shooting foul, so I better dump it off so Coach doesn't get mad at me and take me out."

I'm not penalizing a shooter for passing off after he's fouled in the act of shooting. No matter what he "ought" to have done (i.e. follow through with the shot). The rulebook doesn't say a foul can be called only if there's follow-through on the FGA.

You want me to award you something, act like you know how it is. Guys, I have seen players throw up shots well after the foul as they think they might get a foul. Real ballers understand this and do whatever they can to get the advantage.

Again, I am not going around telling you are even criticizing you for your call. I might give you information on a clear pass, but if you say that was shooting, you can explain that to the coach. Just like when there is a close play where the coach thinks you should not have awarded shots, you can explain what you saw. I think we are making this too complicated.

Peace

[Amesman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I think we are making this too complicated.

Peace