Shooting vs. passing after foul

[Adam]

I would never approach a partner with this information. The fact that he/she judged it to be a shot is sufficient for me, regardless of what a player does after that. If you want to approach it differently (such as the way Rut does), go for it. But if my partner comes to me and tells me the ball was passed after the foul, I'll politely thank him for the information and remind him that we have two shots.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Adam

I would never approach a partner with this information.

I would. It is still their decision and I am only giving them information. Done that before, but it is almost never a big deal either way.

Peace

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Adam

I would never approach a partner with this information. The fact that he/she judged it to be a shot is sufficient for me, regardless of what a player does after that. If you want to approach it differently (such as the way Rut does), go for it. But if my partner comes to me and tells me the ball was passed after the foul, I'll politely thank him for the information and remind him that we have two shots.

I think one is an obvious pass. His arms started going up but everything else about it says his intent is pass...and that's what he does. Having said that, the conversation needs to happen just after the call. Once he reports it I'm not coming in to talk unless game is on line at that moment...and then I'm just another referee. If he sticks with calling that a shot it's on him.

Originally Posted by BigCat

I think one is an obvious pass. His arms started going up but everything else about it says his intent is pass...and that's what he does. Having said that, the conversation needs to happen just after the call. Once he reports it I'm not coming in to talk unless game is on line at that moment...and then I'm just another referee. If he sticks with calling that a shot it's on him.

My third partner and I knew the player had passed and were setting up for the OOB throw-in. The conversation didn't happen until after he reported because that was the first time he signaled two shots.

[MD Longhorn]

I think your partner was right both times. The first one it almost appears (it's hard to tell without the ability to zoom in) that the fouler gets part of the shot and it deflects into the other offensive player's hands. The second one he was CLEARLY shooting and only changed his mind after he was knocked over and could no longer shoot.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I think your partner was right both times. The first one it almost appears (it's hard to tell without the ability to zoom in) that the fouler gets part of the shot and it deflects into the other offensive player's hands. The second one he was CLEARLY shooting and only changed his mind after he was knocked over and could no longer shoot.

I can't make you see what I see obviously but the player turns corner and his head is turned back to right entire time. Doesn't look at basket. He passes ball and IMO that was his intent the entire time.

I'm not going to wrestle you over it during game but I think it's an obvious pass. Just what I see.

[MD Longhorn]

I admit the 1st is harder than the 2nd. The inability to pause the video or zoom makes this tough. So I could be wrong. And Arem's angle is probably WAY better than the videographer's angle.

On the 2nd, I firmly believe his partner was right to discard the added information, and don't think this was a case (as one official above stated) of him not wanting to be shown up a 2nd time. It was a case of him being right.

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

The inability to pause the video or zoom makes this tough.

You can pause the video by clicking on it. Sorry there's no zoom!

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by AremRed

You can pause the video by clicking on it. Sorry there's no zoom!

Excellent - thanks.

There is a frame in the video where he's facing the basket and both arms/hands are facing the basket as well --- and the defender's hand is on ball. At this moment ... he's shooting. An instant later - the ball is heading toward his teammate BEFORE he starts turning his head.

I'm more convinced now than I was before.

[SNIPERBBB]

Habitual start of the shooting motion starts when the player gathers the ball. Its gotta be painfully obvious the player is doing something that is not shooting.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I admit the 1st is harder than the 2nd. The inability to pause the video or zoom makes this tough. So I could be wrong. And Arem's angle is probably WAY better than the videographer's angle.

On the 2nd, I firmly believe his partner was right to discard the added information, and don't think this was a case (as one official above stated) of him not wanting to be shown up a 2nd time. It was a case of him being right.

Second play was absolutely a shot. Clearly foul made him change his mind. Info I would give right away is give him two. Going up. Looking at video it would ZnEVER cross my mind to say "he passed ball." Unless I missed the original contact of course.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I can't make you see what I see obviously but the player turns corner and his head is turned back to right entire time. Doesn't look at basket. He passes ball and IMO that was his intent the entire time.

I'm not going to wrestle you over it during game but I think it's an obvious pass. Just what I see.

And if he wants the shot, then do nothing but shoot. Getting fouled and then making that decision after the fact is kind of lame to me. If he did not want anyone to think he was passing, then do not pass. We do not need to make this that complicated.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And if he wants the shot, then do nothing but shoot. Getting fouled and then making that decision after the fact is kind of lame to me. If he did not want anyone to think he was passing, then do not pass. We do not need to make this that complicated.

Peace

I understand why you might give benefit of the doubt the way you say you do ... but he's playing ball --- he doesn't KNOW you're going to call the foul, and has to decide before hearing the whistle if he can still shoot or not. I submit to you that there are cases where he knows, after contact but before whistle, that he can no longer shoot ... and the foul CAUSES the pass instead of the shot.

And the 2nd video is an excellent example of this.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I understand why you might give benefit of the doubt the way you say you do ... but he's playing ball --- he doesn't KNOW you're going to call the foul, and has to decide before hearing the whistle if he can still shoot or not. I submit to you that there are cases where he knows, after contact but before whistle, that he can no longer shoot ... and the foul CAUSES the pass instead of the shot.

And the 2nd video is an excellent example of this.

Then do not pass. It is very simple. You want me to know what is in your head, then do what looks obvious to everyone.

Again, if I am giving shots on plays after the gather and they might not leave the floor or even bring up their arms completely, I am going to not give shots on a clear pass.

Officiating is about survival IMO most of the time. You call what everyone can see. If a coach wants the opposite of everything you see, then I will ask him to tell their player to shoot. If I do not call the foul, then I do not think it was a foul. But a last minute pass to me tells me what you were doing outside of reading your mind, which I cannot do very well. Just ask me fiancée.

Peace

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And if he wants the shot, then do nothing but shoot. Getting fouled and then making that decision after the fact is kind of lame to me. If he did not want anyone to think he was passing, then do not pass. We do not need to make this that complicated.

Peace

I hear what your saying and we are on same page for most part but I wouldn't go quite that far. I grew up being told throw ball to rim if you hear whistle. As a player, I don't always hear whistle or process it. I want to make a play. If I'm going up to shoot like kid in layup play two, defender hits me, I know I can't get my shot off so I react at end and dump it. That's all I'm left with. I see play 2 fit that. Play one is a pass to me.