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Old Wed Jan 04, 2017, 04:15pm
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Shooting vs. passing after foul

Four years ago when I was a rookie I had a game where a partner called a shooting foul but I saw that the player passed the ball after the contact occurred. Here's the thread.

My initial question was when to bring such information to a partner, but this play sparked a spirited debate of whether to award a player free throws when he appears to be shooting before contact, but after contact happens he passes the ball to a teammate.

I present two of these plays for your consideration. Both happened in the same game. In Play 1 my partner said "you're killing me man" when I brought the info but changed it to OOB. In Play 2 later in the game I also brought information but he ignored it and repeated we were shooting two. What say you guys?

Play 1: https://streamable.com/4b589

Play 2: https://streamable.com/fzv07
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Old Wed Jan 04, 2017, 04:22pm
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I haven't watched the plays but I'm on the side of watching the entire play. If your foul is one that has an effect I will still call shooting. Because the foul may prevent shot etc.

However, If the foul is minute etc and the entire sequence doesn't look to me that you ever intended to shoot I will call it foul on pass. Fact is I can take ball up and you don't know what my intent is until I do it. If the foul is significant I'll call it shooting. I just disagree with those who say I have to make the decision right at the moment of any contact.

I watched, number 1 is a pass, number two is a shot. Foul clearly caused him to try pass.

Last edited by BigCat; Wed Jan 04, 2017 at 04:25pm.
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Old Wed Jan 04, 2017, 04:28pm
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The game is about him. Not about the correct call. You embarrassed him once and he didnt want any more of it later. Most guys are not start, develop, finish and decide. They just want to get something quickly. How can he not see the guy didnt shot on either one. All states have a huge number of average referees who they need to work varsity. This guy is no exception. Im surprised the coaches dont go after him. Was he the R? His body language is saying he doesnt want your help and doesnt appreciate. Glad you know how to referee.
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Old Wed Jan 04, 2017, 04:28pm
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You have rules support to call shooting foul if that fits your judgment. But I think if a player passes at the last second, I am not giving them any benefit of the doubt as they could have continued and I would think they were shooting. And part of my announcement at the spot is, "pass off...."

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Old Wed Jan 04, 2017, 04:42pm
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I would never approach a partner with this information. The fact that he/she judged it to be a shot is sufficient for me, regardless of what a player does after that. If you want to approach it differently (such as the way Rut does), go for it. But if my partner comes to me and tells me the ball was passed after the foul, I'll politely thank him for the information and remind him that we have two shots.
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Old Wed Jan 04, 2017, 04:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
I would never approach a partner with this information.
I would. It is still their decision and I am only giving them information. Done that before, but it is almost never a big deal either way.

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Old Wed Jan 04, 2017, 04:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
I would never approach a partner with this information. The fact that he/she judged it to be a shot is sufficient for me, regardless of what a player does after that. If you want to approach it differently (such as the way Rut does), go for it. But if my partner comes to me and tells me the ball was passed after the foul, I'll politely thank him for the information and remind him that we have two shots.
I think one is an obvious pass. His arms started going up but everything else about it says his intent is pass...and that's what he does. Having said that, the conversation needs to happen just after the call. Once he reports it I'm not coming in to talk unless game is on line at that moment...and then I'm just another referee. If he sticks with calling that a shot it's on him.
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Old Wed Jan 04, 2017, 04:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
I would never approach a partner with this information. The fact that he/she judged it to be a shot is sufficient for me, regardless of what a player does after that. If you want to approach it differently (such as the way Rut does), go for it. But if my partner comes to me and tells me the ball was passed after the foul, I'll politely thank him for the information and remind him that we have two shots.
Never?? Really? Did you even watch the plays? Do you not want to get the play right? So if you and the coach saw the player pass as in Play 1 and the coach asks you why you didn't help your partner, what would you say?
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Old Wed Jan 04, 2017, 04:52pm
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Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
I think one is an obvious pass. His arms started going up but everything else about it says his intent is pass...and that's what he does. Having said that, the conversation needs to happen just after the call. Once he reports it I'm not coming in to talk unless game is on line at that moment...and then I'm just another referee. If he sticks with calling that a shot it's on him.
My third partner and I knew the player had passed and were setting up for the OOB throw-in. The conversation didn't happen until after he reported because that was the first time he signaled two shots.
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Old Wed Jan 04, 2017, 04:53pm
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I think your partner was right both times. The first one it almost appears (it's hard to tell without the ability to zoom in) that the fouler gets part of the shot and it deflects into the other offensive player's hands. The second one he was CLEARLY shooting and only changed his mind after he was knocked over and could no longer shoot.
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Old Wed Jan 04, 2017, 04:54pm
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Originally Posted by BigT View Post
The game is about him. Not about the correct call. You embarrassed him once and he didnt want any more of it later. Most guys are not start, develop, finish and decide. They just want to get something quickly. How can he not see the guy didnt shot on either one. All states have a huge number of average referees who they need to work varsity. This guy is no exception. Im surprised the coaches dont go after him. Was he the R? His body language is saying he doesnt want your help and doesnt appreciate. Glad you know how to referee.
A lot of unnecessary comments therein. The guy didn't shoot on either one but the difference is the second foul prevented or caused the pass. It is a shooting foul every day and twice on Sunday.
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Old Wed Jan 04, 2017, 04:54pm
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From my comfy seat in the stands, this seems as one of the less consistently called plays in HS. I see plays where the player passes (and seemed to be entirely setting up the pass from the start) get free throws, and the player who gets mugged while trying to release the ball on a shot who then shuffles it away get told he wasn't shooting. And even from the handful of posts above, it is pretty clear there is quite a spectrum of how refs who take this stuff seriously see these plays.

IMHO, the question should be whether the player was in the act of shooting at the moment of the foul -- and it should be entirely irrelevant if the foul causes him to change to a pass. (And yes, I recognize that is not always easy to tell.)
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Old Wed Jan 04, 2017, 04:59pm
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Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
I think your partner was right both times. The first one it almost appears (it's hard to tell without the ability to zoom in) that the fouler gets part of the shot and it deflects into the other offensive player's hands. The second one he was CLEARLY shooting and only changed his mind after he was knocked over and could no longer shoot.
I can't make you see what I see obviously but the player turns corner and his head is turned back to right entire time. Doesn't look at basket. He passes ball and IMO that was his intent the entire time.

I'm not going to wrestle you over it during game but I think it's an obvious pass. Just what I see.
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Old Wed Jan 04, 2017, 05:03pm
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I admit the 1st is harder than the 2nd. The inability to pause the video or zoom makes this tough. So I could be wrong. And Arem's angle is probably WAY better than the videographer's angle.

On the 2nd, I firmly believe his partner was right to discard the added information, and don't think this was a case (as one official above stated) of him not wanting to be shown up a 2nd time. It was a case of him being right.
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Old Wed Jan 04, 2017, 05:04pm
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Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
The inability to pause the video or zoom makes this tough.
You can pause the video by clicking on it. Sorry there's no zoom!
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