Texas @ Michigan plays (Video)

[APG]

Outnumbered or not, you have a defender who alights in an attempt to block a shot. Therefore the RA is not in play...regardless if the defender is the primary or secondary.

BTW I have a foul...defender violates POV in both plays IMO.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by APG

Outnumbered or not, you have a defender who alights in an attempt to block a shot. Therefore the RA is not in play...regardless if the defender is the primary or secondary.

BTW I have a foul...defender violates POV in both plays IMO.

Yes, we all agree about the shot blocking aspect. I'm trying to figure out where and when do we look to decide what is "outnumbered." As I said, I don't see the videos so I'm probably wrong.

In this play because we have 2 defenders back and 2 pushing the play I'd think this was "even". If we had another Michigan player right behind them with no one else around I'd certainly think of him a the 3rd making it 3 on 2.

I see what Jeff means when he shows me the video but i consider those people trailing not really part of the fast break. They may be part of some secondary break but i see this as 2 on 2. Anyway, i need to find the videos. Thx

[Raymond]

Based on the case book, it's any outnumbering fast break, regardless if it is defense or offense that has more players.

A.R. 101. Team A is on a 3 on 2 or a 2 on 3 fast break, and any player on Team B takes an initial guarding position (1) within the restricted area with two feet on the floor and facing the opponent, or (2) outside the restricted area with two feet on the floor and facing the opponent, in an attempt to draw a player control/charging foul. A2, after receiving a pass, crashes into the torso of the Team B player, and the official calls a player control/charging foul.

RULING 1: The official is incorrect. In any outnumbering fast break situation, all Team B players are initially secondary defenders. The Team B player may not establish initial legal guarding position inside the restricted area, and the illegal contact by B is a blocking foul.

2: The official is correct. Even though the Team B player is initially a secondary defender, he did not establish initial guarding position inside the restricted area. When illegal contact occurs, it shall be a player control/charging foul.
(Rule 4-35.4, 4-30 and 10-1.14)

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Based on the case book, it's any outnumbering fast break, regardless if it is defense or offense that has more players.

A.R. 101. Team A is on a 3 on 2 or a 2 on 3 fast break, and any player on Team B takes an initial guarding position (1) within the restricted area with two feet on the floor and facing the opponent, or (2) outside the restricted area with two feet on the floor and facing the opponent, in an attempt to draw a player control/charging foul. A2, after receiving a pass, crashes into the torso of the Team B player, and the official calls a player control/charging foul.

RULING 1: The official is incorrect. In any outnumbering fast break situation, all Team B players are initially secondary defenders. The Team B player may not establish initial legal guarding position inside the restricted area, and the illegal contact by B is a blocking foul.

2: The official is correct. Even though the Team B player is initially a secondary defender, he did not establish initial guarding position inside the restricted area. When illegal contact occurs, it shall be a player control/charging foul.
(Rule 4-35.4, 4-30 and 10-1.14)

Yeah i was aware of that play. depending on where, when and how many players you include, you can say even or odd just about any time. If we view the entire floor to make the decision it's likely odd every time…. i think i may just call everything odd and say don't set up initially in the arc.

Jeff, do you have any examples of "even" under the guidelines?

[deecee]

Guys the rule just says that on an uneven fastbreak defenders are INITIALLY all secondary defenders. One can become a primary defender in an uneven fastbreak when they meet the criteria. They do not remain a secondary defender UNTIL the number of players even out, they remain a secondary defender until they become a primary defender.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by deecee

Guys the rule just says that on an uneven fastbreak defenders are INITIALLY all secondary defenders. One can become a primary defender in an uneven fastbreak when they meet the criteria. They do not remain a secondary defender UNTIL the number of players even out, they remain a secondary defender until they become a primary defender.

Yes, I know initially is important and i had left that out a few pages ago. Now, I was looking at what is considered an "even" fast break. In outnumbered situations all are secondary defenders, initially, and cannot establish initial LGP in the RA.

If we call it an "even" fast break then regular rules apply. in this video, lets say number 4 is back and instead of trying to block the shot he sets up to take a charge and the first place (initial) he establishes LGP is in the RA. If we call it "even" numbered fast break he is ok because he isn't a secondary defender.

If we call this "outnumbered" --block because he established LGP initially in the RA.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BigCat

If we call this "outnumbered" --block because he established LGP initially in the RA.

Irrespective of anything the RA restriction does not apply to an defender that is airborne making a play on the ball. The only time the RA is used in a case where you would have called a PC foul however the player did not meet the requirements due to being (1) secondary (2) within the RA plane at the point of contact & (3) NOT airborne.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Yeah i was aware of that play. depending on where, when and how many players you include, you can say even or odd just about any time. If we view the entire floor to make the decision it's likely odd every time…. i think i may just call everything odd and say don't set up initially in the arc.

Jeff, do you have any examples of "even" under the guidelines?

I do not have a specific example other than if you are not on a break anymore, then all the defenders are defending someone. Again I think this was addressed in the NCAA video on some level, but I would have to find that in my library.

Peace

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by APG

Outnumbered or not, you have a defender who alights in an attempt to block a shot. Therefore the RA is not in play...regardless if the defender is the primary or secondary.

BTW I have a foul...defender violates POV in both plays IMO.

Clearly a foul IMO.

Is there a 2nd video that I'm missing?