I wish NFHS mechanics indicated...

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

And I said I didn't know there was a high school standard. Thus making the prior comment about the confusion unnecessary or just wrong.

There is no 2-hand reporting in HS, so your musings about confusion was pointless. If HS goes to 2-hand reporting, there is already a standard they will adopt. If someone is going renegade and doing 2-hand reporting in HS games, there is still a standard way of doing 2-hand reporting. Not sure why you can't grasp that.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

There is no 2-hand reporting in HS, so your musings about confusion was pointless. If HS goes to 2-hand reporting, there is already a standard they will adopt. If someone is going renegade and doing 2-hand reporting in HS games, there is still a standard way of doing 2-hand reporting. Not sure why you can't grasp that.

So there "is no 2-hand reporting in HS", but some renegade officials may be doing it anyway, but that's okay because "there is still a standard way of doing 2-hand reporting".

Really? There is no standard high school mechanic... but actually there is? Oh! I see, because that's the way they do it in college, so of course a renegade official will do it the collegiate way, and of course the table personnel will know the college way and totally get it right.

And you don't see any confusion happening? None at all?

Look... my comment had to do with the NF not having a standard way of reporting, and giving an example of what could potentially happen. I went on to point out that confusion was more likely at the high school level due to poor table personnel, and could have gone on about the many poor high school officials (we all know some).

The response made it seem like some places do use 2-handed mechanics, and they are standardized (by an association, league, or whatever), hence me saying I was wrong. I actually backed off my original response, and took back what I said saying I was wrong.

And apparently I'm the problem? Now that's confusing.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

So there "is no 2-hand reporting in HS", but some renegade officials may be doing it anyway, but that's okay because "there is still a standard way of doing 2-hand reporting".

Really? There is no standard high school mechanic... but actually there is? Oh! I see, because that's the way they do it in college, so of course a renegade official will do it the collegiate way, and of course the table personnel will know the college way and totally get it right.

And you don't see any confusion happening? None at all?

Look... my comment had to do with the NF not having a standard way of reporting, and giving an example of what could potentially happen. I went on to point out that confusion was more likely at the high school level due to poor table personnel, and could have gone on about the many poor high school officials (we all know some).

The response made it seem like some places do use 2-handed mechanics, and they are standardized (by an association, league, or whatever), hence me saying I was wrong. I actually backed off my original response, and took back what I said saying I was wrong.

And apparently I'm the problem? Now that's confusing.

I do not know why you would be taking this all so personal. For one the NF does not have any such mechanic for reporting fouls other than using one hand. The other levels use two-hand reporting, not the NF at this time. So if they decide to adopt that mechanic, I am sure they would say how it is to be done or not done. Not many options of course, but I would not put it past the NF to have a different standard. Now if your state as adopted this method already, then they might just stick with that standard. But all that has been said and it is true, the NF has not adopted this method, no more than they have told us that we are to report fouls outside of the reporting area, but official do this all the time outside of the NF stated mechanics.

Peace

[Freddy]

Funny nobody has cited 2-9-1 yet in this discussion: "...then with the finger(s) of one hand indicate to the scorer..."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Funny nobody has cited 2-9-1 yet in this discussion: "...then with the finger(s) of one hand indicate to the scorer..."

What really is there to discuss unless you are suggesting that the rules support the mechanics?

Peace

[BlueDevilRef]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not know why you would be taking this all so personal. For one the NF does not have any such mechanic for reporting fouls other than using one hand. The other levels use two-hand reporting, not the NF at this time. So if they decide to adopt that mechanic, I am sure they would say how it is to be done or not done. Not many options of course, but I would not put it past the NF to have a different standard. Now if your state as adopted this method already, then they might just stick with that standard. But all that has been said and it is true, the NF has not adopted this method, no more than they have told us that we are to report fouls outside of the reporting area, but official do this all the time outside of the NF stated mechanics.



Peace

Not to belabor this tangent on the OP, but the way I read bryans original comment was exactly what you said above.

[johnny d]

You are making this way too complicated. It is standard practice to read and write from left to right. The reporting official has no need to read or write the numbers, but the person at the table does, therefore, the hands are used so that the person reading the number gets it in the normal, standard practice of reading and writing. This is not a basketball issue. Under what circumstances would it make any sense at all for the order of the numbers be reversed so that the person actually reading them has to do something the exact opposite of what he does any other time he is reading a number?

Originally Posted by BryanV21

So there "is no 2-hand reporting in HS", but some renegade officials may be doing it anyway, but that's okay because "there is still a standard way of doing 2-hand reporting".

Really? There is no standard high school mechanic... but actually there is? Oh! I see, because that's the way they do it in college, so of course a renegade official will do it the collegiate way, and of course the table personnel will know the college way and totally get it right.

And you don't see any confusion happening? None at all?

Look... my comment had to do with the NF not having a standard way of reporting, and giving an example of what could potentially happen. I went on to point out that confusion was more likely at the high school level due to poor table personnel, and could have gone on about the many poor high school officials (we all know some).

The response made it seem like some places do use 2-handed mechanics, and they are standardized (by an association, league, or whatever), hence me saying I was wrong. I actually backed off my original response, and took back what I said saying I was wrong.

And apparently I'm the problem? Now that's confusing.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What really is there to discuss unless you are suggesting that the rules support the mechanics?

Peace

Just wanted to put on the table the fact that the mechanic supports an existing, albeit not widely known, rule -- a reality that had not been expressed previously.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Funny nobody has cited 2-9-1 yet in this discussion: "...then with the finger(s) of one hand indicate to the scorer..."

Could just as easily replace "one" with "two" or "one or two" if there's a mechanics change.

[deecee]

This is not rocket engineering. HS mechanics is one handed reporting and college is 2. IF you use 2 in HS yes the table will get it as at the least their IQ would be 60. Which I think is all you need to figure out a number being reported using one hand or two.

[UNIgiantslayers]

Originally Posted by johnny d

You are making this way too complicated. It is standard practice to read and write from left to right. The reporting official has no need to read or write the numbers, but the person at the table does, therefore, the hands are used so that the person reading the number gets it in the normal, standard practice of reading and writing. This is not a basketball issue. Under what circumstances would it make any sense at all for the order of the numbers be reversed so that the person actually reading them has to do something the exact opposite of what he does any other time he is reading a number?

Facing the umpire in baseball.

[Raymond]

So let's start over.

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Two hand reporting can also be confusing for the table.
Say I want to report a foul on number "21", so I hold up two fingers on my left hand and one finger on my right. When looking at it from my viewpoint I'm showing "21", but from the table's viewpoint I'm showing number "12". And if the table can't hear me verbally say "21", they may give the foul to the wrong player, thus causing problems down the road.

There needs to be a specific mechanic given by the NF for reporting player numbers with two hands, so that both the official and table know what to do/look for. However, there's not. So you're inevitably going to run into problems like I described. Therefore... keep it simple-stupid.

BTW, I think we all have worked games with people at the table that are less than competent. And perhaps that's not as much of a problem at the college level, thus making two-handed foul reporting less of a problem.

Why would you be reporting 2-hands in a HS game?

If you were reporting with 2-hands in a HS game, why would you be using the wrong hands?

Why would it be confusing to the table if the person reporting with 2-hands was doing it properly?

I can see this happening. You're at a camp. They are playing HS rules and using HS mechanics. Camp supervisor tells the officials, I don't care if you use 1-hand or 2-hands when reporting fouls. Bryan decides to use 2-hands, but keeps using his left hands for the "tens' and his right hand for the "ones".

Observer to Bryan: "If you are going to use 2-hand reporting, you need to do it properly".
Bryan to observer: "Yeah, but the NFHS doesn't have a standard for 2-hand reporting."
Observer to Bryan: "Anybody using 2-hands should already know the proper way or shouldn't be doing it"
Bryan: Another "yeah but...." response

Bryan later wonders why observers stopped giving him feedback after his games.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by AremRed

This. Every level of two-handed reporting does it this way and any scorekeeper worth their salt should be able to handle two-handed reporting. Most of the time the scorekeeper knows who the foul is on anyway.

Originally Posted by APG

That's on the official for not reporting correctly.

I think the main issue in HS (which includes JV and Freshman) is that you have many scorekeepers and likely many officials that just will not get it right. You'll have some number of officials that will put the 10's number on their left hand because that is how they see it. Sometimes, you'll have scorekeepers that are barely paying attention since it is someone they could talk into doing the lower level game. I'm not against 2-hand reporting at the levels where everyone is going to be up to speed but doing it across the board is just going to create situations that can be avoided.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I think the main issue in HS (which includes JV and Freshman) is that you have many scorekeepers and likely many officials that just will not get it right. You'll have some number of officials that will put the 10's number on their left hand because that is how they see it. Sometimes, you'll have scorekeepers that are barely paying attention since it is someone they could talk into doing the lower level game. I'm not against 2-hand reporting at the levels where everyone is going to be up to speed but doing it across the board is just going to create situations that can be avoided.

I think this is the key (as well as BNR's comments). Having been a clinician with my state for almost 10 years now, I can tell you that it is hard some times to get officials to even get simple things right like how you stop the clock and we are going to expect they will be able to accurately report a foul with both hands at the freshman level? And that does not include the fact that at the freshman level, we are lucky (at least in this area) to get an adult run the table. Instead we have a student who is more concerned with their phone than actually paying attention to us when reporting. I wish I had a dollar every time I try to report in any game and have the table not paying attention to me when reporting the foul. This is more of a problem at the lower levels because the table person thinks they know who the foul is on. Many times they are right, other times they are not.

Peace