Fumbled Ball (cont)

[Dad]

Originally Posted by OKREF

If you shoot the ball off your own backboard in an attempt to score, then it is legal. You cant just throw it off the backboard and retrieve it. It must be considered a try for goal.

I agree with this.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by OKREF

If you shoot the ball off your own backboard in an attempt to score, then it is legal. You can't just throw it off the backboard and retrieve it. It must be considered a try for goal.

Originally Posted by Dad

I agree with this.

How can you agree with the second part of OKREF's post? It's in direct opposition to the caseplay. A player can just throw it off of (his) backboard and retrieve it, especially if he doesn't move his feet (which is not mentioned, one way, or the other, in the caseplay).

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an
official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and
(c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official
constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

How can you agree with the second part of OKREF's post? It's in direct opposition to the caseplay. A player can just throw it off of (his) backboard and retrieve it, especially if he doesn't move his feet (which is not mentioned, one way, or the other, in the caseplay).

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an
official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and
(c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official
constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

Hmm. 4.15.4 C says you can only do this if it is considered a shot.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Hmm. 4.15.4 C says you can only do this if it is considered a shot.

Read it again when u get a chance and 9.5. The rule 4 play doesn't say u can only do it if it is a shot.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Read it again when u get a chance and 9.5. The rule 4 play doesn't say u can only do it if it is a shot.

I've read it, and it does say in an attempt to score a try, the way I read it, if it isn't an attempt to score it's not legal.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by OKREF

I've read it, and it does say in an attempt to score a try, the way I read it, if it isn't an attempt to score it's not legal.

Alright, you are reading the words correctly...if it is an attempt at a try A1 can do anything. However, I don't like your interpretation. Its a huge jump to look at what A1 can do and declare all other things are illegal.

Read 9.5 also.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

How can you agree with the second part of OKREF's post? It's in direct opposition to the caseplay. A player can just throw it off of (his) backboard and retrieve it, especially if he doesn't move his feet (which is not mentioned, one way, or the other, in the caseplay).

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an
official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and
(c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official
constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

It's not in opposition. You're in the crowd reading things into this play that do not exist. I'm not saying your crowd is wrong, I'm saying only looking at the NFHS rules it never says it's legal to purposely throw it off your own backboard and then retrieve it/dribble again. And by retrieve I mean moving both feet to get the ball.

9.5 is only stating that throwing the ball of your own backboard isn't counted as a dribble. The only decent defense I have seen in this entire post was by Camron referencing an NCAA play. However, on the NCAA play the case book references being able to move/dribble again at an attempt at a shot. 9.5 says nothing about a shot, or references it at the end.

Anyway, I honestly don't care which way it's called as long as a crew is calling it consistent. Mainly I wanted to know if there was any definite knowledge as to how to call this play and so far I haven't seen it.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Dad

It's not in opposition. You're in the crowd reading things into this play that do not exist. I'm not saying your crowd is wrong, I'm saying only looking at the NFHS rules it never says it's legal to purposely throw it off your own backboard and then retrieve it/dribble again. And by retrieve I mean moving both feet to get the ball.

9.5 is only stating that throwing the ball of your own backboard isn't counted as a dribble. The only decent defense I have seen in this entire post was by Camron referencing an NCAA play. However, on the NCAA play the case book references being able to move/dribble again at an attempt at a shot. 9.5 says nothing about a shot, or references it at the end.

I think this is part of the disconnect. This case play says it must be considered a shot, therefore if it isn't a shot one could infer that it's a violation. This may or may not be a stretch, however it could be interpreted as that, and then it would be conflicting with rule 9.5.

4.15.4 C

After dribbling and coming to a stop, A1 throws the ball: (a) against the opponent's backboard and catches the rebound; (b) against an official, immediately recovers the ball and dribbles again; or (c) against his/her own backboard in an attempt to score (try), catches the rebound and dribbles again.

RULING: A1 has violated in both (a) and (b). Throwing the ball against the opponent's backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is the first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. In (c), the action is legal. Once the ball is released on the try, there is no player or team control, therefore, A1 can recover the rebound and begin a dribble.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Dad

It's not in opposition. You're in the crowd reading things into this play that do not exist. I'm not saying your crowd is wrong, I'm saying only looking at the NFHS rules it never says it's legal to purposely throw it off your own backboard and then retrieve it/dribble again. And by retrieve I mean moving both feet to get the ball.

9.5 is only stating that throwing the ball of your own backboard isn't counted as a dribble. The only decent defense I have seen in this entire post was by Camron referencing an NCAA play. However, on the NCAA play the case book references being able to move/dribble again at an attempt at a shot. 9.5 says nothing about a shot, or references it at the end.

9.5 says a player's own backboard is "legal equipment" so it isn't double/illegal dribble violation when A1 ends his dribble, throws it off his board (not a try) and catches it. If A1 did this at the opponents basket or an official it would be illegal dribble. I think we should be able to agree generally, that 9.5 expands the rights of A1 when he throws the ball off his board.

You are taking this play that expands A1 rights and using the wording which does the expanding (throwing ball off own board is not a dribble) and restricting A1's rights by calling travel if he moves to retrieve the ball. I'm assuming you are saying since throwing the ball off his backboard is not a dribble, A1 travels when he moves to catch it.
Consider this, if you throw me a pass in the backcourt i can throw ball off opponents backboard and run and get it. if you throw me a pass i can then throw it off the official and run and get it. Those are considered dribbles. However, under your interpretation, if you pass me the ball and i throw it off my backboard, never having dribbled, i can't run and get it..even though my backboard is "legal equipment."

I agree that 9.5 says throwing ball off the backboard isn't a dribble. however, it is still something. when you say he can't retrieve it you are making it as if it didn't happen... a player is running to catch a pass to himself. I think the "legal equipment" phrase means something more. After all, there's nothing inherently illegal about throwing the ball off the opponent's backboard or an official.

9.5 is meant to expand rights of A1. Using its language to then call travel has the effect of restricting them. That isn't its intent in my view.

Finally, the college play says A1 ends dribble, throws ball off backboard, follows it (runs) catches it while both feet in the air and then dunks. Under your interpretation the play would have been illegal the moment A1 caught the ball off the board. He ran and retrieved it. The fact that he dunked it afterwards shouldn't matter. That's not what it says.

I don't recommend anyone call the play travel if the player runs to catch the ball off the backboard or double dribble if he then puts it on the floor after the catch. Everyone will have to decide for themselves. The end….

[RefBob]

Originally Posted by BigCat

You are taking this play that expands A1 rights and using the wording which does the expanding (throwing ball off own board is not a dribble) and restricting A1's rights by calling travel if he moves to retrieve the ball. I'm assuming you are saying since throwing the ball off his backboard is not a dribble, A1 travels when he moves to catch it.
Consider this, if you throw me a pass in the backcourt i can throw ball off opponents backboard and run and get it. if you throw me a pass i can then throw it off the official and run and get it. Those are considered dribbles. However, under your interpretation, if you pass me the ball and i throw it off my backboard, never having dribbled, i can't run and get it..even though my backboard is "legal equipment."

I agree that 9.5 says throwing ball off the backboard isn't a dribble. however, it is still something. when you say he can't retrieve it you are making it as if it didn't happen... a player is running to catch a pass to himself. I think the "legal equipment" phrase means something more. After all, there's nothing inherently illegal about throwing the ball off the opponent's backboard or an official.

9.5 is meant to expand rights of A1. Using its language to then call travel has the effect of restricting them. That isn't its intent in my view.


I don't recommend anyone call the play travel if the player runs to catch the ball off the backboard or double dribble if he then puts it on the floor after the catch. Everyone will have to decide for themselves. The end….

Excellent analysis and you convinced me.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by BigCat

9.5 says a player's own backboard is "legal equipment" so it isn't double/illegal dribble violation when A1 ends his dribble, throws it off his board (not a try) and catches it. If A1 did this at the opponents basket or an official it would be illegal dribble. I think we should be able to agree generally, that 9.5 expands the rights of A1 when he throws the ball off his board.

You are taking this play that expands A1 rights and using the wording which does the expanding (throwing ball off own board is not a dribble) and restricting A1's rights by calling travel if he moves to retrieve the ball. I'm assuming you are saying since throwing the ball off his backboard is not a dribble, A1 travels when he moves to catch it.
Consider this, if you throw me a pass in the backcourt i can throw ball off opponents backboard and run and get it. if you throw me a pass i can then throw it off the official and run and get it. Those are considered dribbles. However, under your interpretation, if you pass me the ball and i throw it off my backboard, never having dribbled, i can't run and get it..even though my backboard is "legal equipment."

I agree that 9.5 says throwing ball off the backboard isn't a dribble. however, it is still something. when you say he can't retrieve it you are making it as if it didn't happen... a player is running to catch a pass to himself. I think the "legal equipment" phrase means something more. After all, there's nothing inherently illegal about throwing the ball off the opponent's backboard or an official.

9.5 is meant to expand rights of A1. Using its language to then call travel has the effect of restricting them. That isn't its intent in my view.

Finally, the college play says A1 ends dribble, throws ball off backboard, follows it (runs) catches it while both feet in the air and then dunks. Under your interpretation the play would have been illegal the moment A1 caught the ball off the board. He ran and retrieved it. The fact that he dunked it afterwards shouldn't matter. That's not what it says.

I don't recommend anyone call the play travel if the player runs to catch the ball off the backboard or double dribble if he then puts it on the floor after the catch. Everyone will have to decide for themselves. The end….

The first bold, keep in my that how I interpret the written rules and how I actually officiate are not 100% in line. By book, I would argue this could be called a travel, but it'd be a giant headache and I just hope I never see it. If I do, there's almost no way I'm blowing my whistle.

Second part, when reading case plays it's pivotal to read the rule references. In the college case play it references 5-1.1 which says a player may go and retrieve a ball after an attempt at a shot. While the case play may look similar to the NFHS case play it's inherently different for this very reason. I keep trying to point out that the COLLEGE play is referring to a shot while the HIGH SCHOOL play is not referring to a shot.

Comparing these two plays is useless as they are entirely different. Unless, any throw at the backboard is supposed to be considered a shot, but that's a stretch.

I don't disagree with how you're calling the play. I just don't believe the book gives any literal evidence of it.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Dad

The first bold, keep in my that how I interpret the written rules and how I actually officiate are not 100% in line. By book, I would argue this could be called a travel, but it'd be a giant headache and I just hope I never see it. If I do, there's almost no way I'm blowing my whistle.

Second part, when reading case plays it's pivotal to read the rule references. In the college case play it references 5-1.1 which says a player may go and retrieve a ball after an attempt at a shot. While the case play may look similar to the NFHS case play it's inherently different for this very reason. I keep trying to point out that the COLLEGE play is referring to a shot while the HIGH SCHOOL play is not referring to a shot.

Comparing these two plays is useless as they are entirely different. Unless, any throw at the backboard is supposed to be considered a shot, but that's a stretch.

I don't disagree with how you're calling the play. I just don't believe the book gives any literal evidence of it.

I think it would be a disaster to ever call it travel. There's an argument that a player can't dribble after retrieving it but i believe the language in 9.5 stating that the players own backboard is a "team's equipment" and "may be used" is the equivalent of throwing it off another player. I will let the player dribble again. Others will have to decide.

as far as the college play goes..it is the exact same play as the throw off board run and catch that we have been talking about. 5-1-1 is simply the definition of a try and 5-1-5 defines a dunk. Neither speaks about retrieving the ball after a try. None of those cites are listed imo to establish that the original throw off the backboard is a try. The "dunk" is a "try" for goal and the reason, imo, those cites are listed. we also have the actual words/substance of the play itself... and Camron has posted the plays. Those throws in his videos clearly aren't tries. I think the plays are exactly the same and the college play is the correct interpretation.

Anyway, folks will have to make their own decisions as I said earlier.

[Kansas Ref]

[QUOTE=Dad;986568] While the case play may look similar to the NFHS case play it's inherently different for this very reason. I keep trying to point out that the COLLEGE play is referring to a shot while the HIGH SCHOOL play is not referring to a shot.[QUOTE]

*astutely differentiated.

[BigCat]

[QUOTE=Kansas Ref;986576][QUOTE=Dad;986568] While the case play may look similar to the NFHS case play it's inherently different for this very reason. I keep trying to point out that the COLLEGE play is referring to a shot while the HIGH SCHOOL play is not referring to a shot.

*astutely differentiated.

Both plays involve throws off A1's own backboard that are not tries. The fact that the college play ends in a dunk isn't a factor.

And for the record, the plays are not exactly the same. And I can screwup with the best of them. Think I'm good with this one.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Dad

... only looking at the NFHS rules it never says it's legal to purposely throw it off your own backboard and then retrieve it/dribble again.

Partially agree.

Retrieving the ball is legal, not according to the rules, but according to the casebook play, the NFHS says that it's legal. It's there in black and white.

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which throws the
ball against his own backboard and catches the ball. RULING: Legal.

Dribbling again? I'm of the the opinion that the player can't dribble again. I see nothing in the rules, or in the casebook, that allows him to dribble again, assuming that it's not deemed to be a try.

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended,
unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.