Fumbled Ball (cont)

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Dad

Where does it say anything about being able to throw it off your own backboard and moving both feet to retrieve it? It doesn't count as a dribble if you throw it off your shoes/shorts/jersey/etc. You still can't run to get it.

See above. 9.5.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by BigCat

See above. 9.5.

Read it yourself, my point still stands. When is equipment anything other than something you wear? This is an exception in that you can throw the ball off the backboard and catch it without it being a dribble. You can not throw it off the backboard, take steps, and then catch it.

[Dad]

Wrongly stated, it's not even an exception. It's just considered equipment. The rules for an illegal dribble still stand. Nothing even hints at being able to circumvent the rule(s).

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Dad

Read it yourself, my point still stands. When is equipment anything other than something you wear? This is an exception in that you can throw the ball off the backboard and catch it without it being a dribble. You can not throw it off the backboard, take steps, and then catch it.

Save the attitude...please....Equipment is "other than something you wear" when the ball is thrown off your backboard. The backboard is your "team's equipment." As I said earlier, see 9.5. Only said as a reference and not as smart....s

Now, you think the play means I can throw ball off my backboard but, if not a try, I can't move to catch it. When, in the history of basketball, have you seen such a play? Never...what you may have seen is the player throw ball off his backboard, run and dunk, or like Michigan play posted here long ago.

You can read 9.5 the way you are but I think it's wayy to narrow.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Dad

Read it yourself, my point still stands. When is equipment anything other than something you wear? This is an exception in that you can throw the ball off the backboard and catch it without it being a dribble. You can not throw it off the backboard, take steps, and then catch it.

And..the backboard is the "teams equipment." Clearly I can't bounce the ball off of my own foot, run and catch it in air... but if you are on my team and I throw it off your "equipment"(shoe) I can do whatever I want. To say that the backboard is the same as a player's own shoe or shirt doesn't work.

I think the case play and the "equipment" language comes out of thin air when it comes to rules but they want the specific play I mentioned above to be legal. Too narrow for me to agree that the play means player can throw it off backboard but can't move to get it. That never happens so no need to have a play saying it legal...

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Dad

Wrongly stated, it's not even an exception. It's just considered equipment. The rules for an illegal dribble still stand. Nothing even hints at being able to circumvent the rule(s).

It isn't so explicitly spelled out but the whole point of the case play is to declare that throwin it off your own backboard ends player such that ut allows for the player to dribble again, supersedes the travel rule, etc

While it isn't from the NFHS book, the rules around this are exactly the same and here is what the NCAA book says...

A.R. 105. A1 intercepts a pass and dribbles toward A’s basket for a breakaway
layup. Near A’s free-throw line, A1 legally stops and ends his dribble. A1 throws the ball against A’s backboard and follows the throw. While airborne,
A1 rebounds the ball off the backboard and dunks.

RULING: The play shall be legal since the backboard is located in A1’s frontcourt, which A1 is entitled to use. (Rule 5-1.1 and .6, and 9-12.1)

[Dad]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Save the attitude...please....Equipment is "other than something you wear" when the ball is thrown off your backboard. The backboard is your "team's equipment." As I said earlier, see 9.5. Only said as a reference and not as smart....s

Now, you think the play means I can throw ball off my backboard but, if not a try, I can't move to catch it. When, in the history of basketball, have you seen such a play? Never...what you may have seen is the player throw ball off his backboard, run and dunk, or like Michigan play posted here long ago.

You can read 9.5 the way you are but I think it's wayy to narrow.

I was trying to point out the case book doesn't say you can take steps or dribble again. Only that if you throw it off your backboard and catch it it doesn't count as a dribble. In my mind the rule book is narrow and should probably just follow along with NCAA, and if they are, at least state it clearly.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It isn't so explicitly spelled out but the whole point of the case play is to declare that throwin it off your own backboard ends player such that ut allows for the player to dribble again, supersedes the travel rule, etc

While it isn't from the NFHS book, the rules around this are exactly the same and here is what the NCAA book says...

I don't like explaining rules by using rules from another level. I would say it isn't even spelled out slightly. The only conclusion I can come to is throwing it off the backboard isn't a dribble. There's no feasible way for me to conclude, in NFHS, that it's okay to start another dribble after throwing it off the backboard.

Either you can throw it off your backboard and take steps/start another dribble, or you can do neither. Any middle ground makes absolutely no sense(to me).

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Dad

Read it yourself, my point still stands. When is equipment anything other than something you wear? (NOTE: See the first three bullets below) This is an exception in that you can throw the ball off the backboard and catch it without it being a dribble. You can not throw it off the backboard, take steps, and then catch it.

Originally Posted by Dad

I don't like explaining rules by using rules from another level. I would say it isn't even spelled out slightly. The only conclusion I can come to is throwing it off the backboard isn't a dribble (NOTE: see the red bolded part below). There's no feasible way for me to conclude, in NFHS, that it's okay to start another dribble after throwing it off the backboard.

Either you can throw it off your backboard and take steps/start another dribble, or you can do neither. Any middle ground makes absolutely no sense(to me).

*What players wear (jersey, pants) = Uniform (NF 3-4).

*What players wear (other than jerseys, pants) = Player Equipment (NF 3-5).

*Backboard = Part of the court and its equipment (NF Rule 1).

*Dribble = Ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times. It is not a part of a dribble when the ball touches a player's own backboard. (NF 4-15-1)

*NF Case Book Play 4.15.1 SITUATION C:
A1 attempts a pass to A2 during pressing action in A's backcourt. The ball hits B's backboard and deflects directly back to A1 who catches the ball and: (a) passes the ball to A2; or (b) starts a dribble.
RULING: The pass against B's backboard was the start of a dribble which ended when A1 caught the ball. In (a), the pass is legal action. In (b), it is a violation for a second dribble. (4-4-5; 9-5)

I'm far from perfect when it comes to some of my posts but it took me all of five minutes to find these in the rule book. It actually took longer to post them.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

*What players wear (jersey, pants) = Uniform (NF 3-4).

*What players wear (other than jerseys, pants) = Player Equipment (NF 3-5).

*Backboard = Part of the court and its equipment (NF Rule 1).

*Dribble = Ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times. It is not a part of a dribble when the ball touches a player's own backboard. (NF 4-15-1)

*NF Case Book Play 4.15.1 SITUATION C:
A1 attempts a pass to A2 during pressing action in A's backcourt. The ball hits B's backboard and deflects directly back to A1 who catches the ball and: (a) passes the ball to A2; or (b) starts a dribble.
RULING: The pass against B's backboard was the start of a dribble which ended when A1 caught the ball. In (a), the pass is legal action. In (b), it is a violation for a second dribble. (4-4-5; 9-5)

I'm far from perfect when it comes to some of my posts but it took me all of five minutes to find these in the rule book. It actually took longer to post them.

He's talking about A1 throwing ball off his backboard..not Bs. 9.5 says it is legal...not double dribble etc. what he was/is contending is the offensive player who throws ball (clearly not a try) off his own backboard, cannot take steps to retrieve the ball. He can throw it off his backboard (not a dribble cause his equipment) but if takes steps to get it-travel. I contend that 9.5 is broader than that and allows steps before ball caught. That is the play that is seen..albeit rarely.
Now the rules don't really support the case play but it is there.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

I'm far from perfect when it comes to some of my posts but it took me all of five minutes to find these in the rule book. It actually took longer to post them.

Your point being what? These don't answer anything. I already stated your bullets, so this isn't any new information. Your assumption on what equipment is or is not is off, but that's just semantics and NFHS's typical use of language.

Bullets aside, for some reason you posted about A throwing off of B's basket. This isn't at all what's being discussed. A throwing off of A's basket is not a dribble.

Edit: I'm inclined to apply the rule with Camron's logic and it's how I've thought it should be written. I just despise how it's not clear in the NFHS rules. You can apply the rule either way and can defend both sides.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BigCat

He's talking about A1 throwing ball off his backboard..not Bs. 9.5 says it is legal...not double dribble etc. what he was/is contending is the offensive player who throws ball (clearly not a try) off his own backboard, cannot take steps to retrieve the ball. He can throw it off his backboard (not a dribble cause his equipment) but if takes steps to get it-travel. I contend that 9.5 is broader than that and allows steps before ball caught. That is the play that is seen..albeit rarely.
Now the rules don't really support the case play but it is there.

Originally Posted by Dad

Bullets aside, for some reason you posted about A throwing off of B's basket. This isn't at all what's being discussed. A throwing off of A's basket is not a dribble.

Got this all muddled between the hypothetical in the OP and what Dad is arguing. Either way, it doesn't hurt to have a case play from Rule 4 since that's where a dribble is defined but Cat you're right, Rule 9 goes a little more in depth.

Originally Posted by Dad

Your point being what? These don't answer anything. I already stated your bullets, so this isn't any new information. Your assumption on what equipment is or is not is off, but that's just semantics and NFHS's typical use of language.

No assumption has been made to what is/isn't equipment. Rule citations have been provided. There are different types of equipment, player and those things considered part of the court.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

No assumption has been made to what is/isn't equipment. Rule citations have been provided. There are different types of equipment, player and those things considered part of the court.

If the case play intended to only say it wouldn't be a double dribble, it would have stipulated that it was legal on if the player didn't move. However, it didn't. It is basically giving such a player carte blanche to start over as if he/she had released the ball on a try.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If the case play intended to only say it wouldn't be a double dribble, it would have stipulated that it was legal on if the player didn't move. However, it didn't. It is basically giving such a player carte blanche to start over as if he/she had released the ball on a try.

I think this is a stretch and interpreting items based around another rule set(NCAA). While I'm not at all saying it's incorrect, I can't get there on paper. The only thing I can know for sure is after picking up your dribble there is a backboard you can pass to yourself off of and one you can't. The rest is manipulating the rules if only going off of what's written in the NFHS rules.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Dad

I think this is a stretch and interpreting items based around another rule set(NCAA). While I'm not at all saying it's incorrect, I can't get there on paper. The only thing I can know for sure is after picking up your dribble there is a backboard you can pass to yourself off of and one you can't. The rest is manipulating the rules if only going off of what's written in the NFHS rules.

Why would it let a player, after ending a dribble, let them throw it off the backboard if he/she was required to remain in the same spot? That would be pretty much useless.

All of the rules came from the same place. The underlying principles and concepts are the same. There are certainly differences but when the rules are the same, short of explicit rulings to the contrary, a reasonable and logical person would and should expect them to have the same interpretations.