Fumbled Ball (cont)

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Case book

4.15.4 C

After dribbling and coming to a stop, A1 throws the ball: (a) against the opponent's backboard and catches the rebound; (b) against an official, immediately recovers the ball and dribbles again; or (c) against his/her own backboard in an attempt to score (try), catches the rebound and dribbles again.
RULING: A1 has violated in both (a) and (b). Throwing the ball against the opponent's backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is the first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. In (c), the action is legal. Once the ball is released on the try, there is no player or team control, therefore, A1 can recover the rebound and begin a dribble.

You may not throw it off either backboard and retrieve it. Since you can't have a "try" at the opponents basket, it will always be a violation. If the throw at your own goal is considered a try it is legal.

Originally Posted by Dad

No, it's not. 9.5.1 and 9.5.3 both talk about being able to dribble again. The only thing 9.5 states is after coming to a stop throwing the ball off your own backboard and catching it isn't counted as a dribble. Absolutely nothing about being able to run to retrieve it or dribble again.

Your only real evidence is an NCAA case play, which isn't good enough for me. It's talking about 5-1.1 which is an attempt at a shot. So yes you're allowed to run after an attempt at a shot and then dunk it. Two completely different plays. One is talking about catching an attempted shot and the other is not.

This says that after coming to a stop, throwing (not attempting a shot) a ball against your own backboard constitutes a new dribble. One can reasonably infer that if it isn't a shot it is not legal, even if it explicitly doesn't say that word for word.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by OKREF

This says that after coming to a stop, throwing (not attempting a shot) a ball against your own backboard constitutes a new dribble. One can reasonably infer that if it isn't a shot it is not legal, even if it explicitly doesn't say that word for word.

What you highlighted and what you said are contradicting each other. Am I missing something?

In an attempt to score (try)

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Dad

What you highlighted and what you said are contradicting each other. Am I missing something?

In an attempt to score (try)

If you shoot the ball off your own backboard in an attempt to score, then it is legal. You cant just throw it off the backboard and retrieve it. It must be considered a try for goal.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by OKREF

If you shoot the ball off your own backboard in an attempt to score, then it is legal. You cant just throw it off the backboard and retrieve it. It must be considered a try for goal.

I agree with this.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by OKREF

If you shoot the ball off your own backboard in an attempt to score, then it is legal. You can't just throw it off the backboard and retrieve it. It must be considered a try for goal.

Originally Posted by Dad

I agree with this.

How can you agree with the second part of OKREF's post? It's in direct opposition to the caseplay. A player can just throw it off of (his) backboard and retrieve it, especially if he doesn't move his feet (which is not mentioned, one way, or the other, in the caseplay).

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an
official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and
(c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official
constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

How can you agree with the second part of OKREF's post? It's in direct opposition to the caseplay. A player can just throw it off of (his) backboard and retrieve it, especially if he doesn't move his feet (which is not mentioned, one way, or the other, in the caseplay).

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an
official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and
(c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official
constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

Hmm. 4.15.4 C says you can only do this if it is considered a shot.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Hmm. 4.15.4 C says you can only do this if it is considered a shot.

Read it again when u get a chance and 9.5. The rule 4 play doesn't say u can only do it if it is a shot.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

How can you agree with the second part of OKREF's post? It's in direct opposition to the caseplay. A player can just throw it off of (his) backboard and retrieve it, especially if he doesn't move his feet (which is not mentioned, one way, or the other, in the caseplay).

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an
official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and
(c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official
constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

It's not in opposition. You're in the crowd reading things into this play that do not exist. I'm not saying your crowd is wrong, I'm saying only looking at the NFHS rules it never says it's legal to purposely throw it off your own backboard and then retrieve it/dribble again. And by retrieve I mean moving both feet to get the ball.

9.5 is only stating that throwing the ball of your own backboard isn't counted as a dribble. The only decent defense I have seen in this entire post was by Camron referencing an NCAA play. However, on the NCAA play the case book references being able to move/dribble again at an attempt at a shot. 9.5 says nothing about a shot, or references it at the end.

Anyway, I honestly don't care which way it's called as long as a crew is calling it consistent. Mainly I wanted to know if there was any definite knowledge as to how to call this play and so far I haven't seen it.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Dad

It's not in opposition. You're in the crowd reading things into this play that do not exist. I'm not saying your crowd is wrong, I'm saying only looking at the NFHS rules it never says it's legal to purposely throw it off your own backboard and then retrieve it/dribble again. And by retrieve I mean moving both feet to get the ball.

9.5 is only stating that throwing the ball of your own backboard isn't counted as a dribble. The only decent defense I have seen in this entire post was by Camron referencing an NCAA play. However, on the NCAA play the case book references being able to move/dribble again at an attempt at a shot. 9.5 says nothing about a shot, or references it at the end.

I think this is part of the disconnect. This case play says it must be considered a shot, therefore if it isn't a shot one could infer that it's a violation. This may or may not be a stretch, however it could be interpreted as that, and then it would be conflicting with rule 9.5.

4.15.4 C

After dribbling and coming to a stop, A1 throws the ball: (a) against the opponent's backboard and catches the rebound; (b) against an official, immediately recovers the ball and dribbles again; or (c) against his/her own backboard in an attempt to score (try), catches the rebound and dribbles again.

RULING: A1 has violated in both (a) and (b). Throwing the ball against the opponent's backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is the first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. In (c), the action is legal. Once the ball is released on the try, there is no player or team control, therefore, A1 can recover the rebound and begin a dribble.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Dad

It's not in opposition. You're in the crowd reading things into this play that do not exist. I'm not saying your crowd is wrong, I'm saying only looking at the NFHS rules it never says it's legal to purposely throw it off your own backboard and then retrieve it/dribble again. And by retrieve I mean moving both feet to get the ball.

9.5 is only stating that throwing the ball of your own backboard isn't counted as a dribble. The only decent defense I have seen in this entire post was by Camron referencing an NCAA play. However, on the NCAA play the case book references being able to move/dribble again at an attempt at a shot. 9.5 says nothing about a shot, or references it at the end.

9.5 says a player's own backboard is "legal equipment" so it isn't double/illegal dribble violation when A1 ends his dribble, throws it off his board (not a try) and catches it. If A1 did this at the opponents basket or an official it would be illegal dribble. I think we should be able to agree generally, that 9.5 expands the rights of A1 when he throws the ball off his board.

You are taking this play that expands A1 rights and using the wording which does the expanding (throwing ball off own board is not a dribble) and restricting A1's rights by calling travel if he moves to retrieve the ball. I'm assuming you are saying since throwing the ball off his backboard is not a dribble, A1 travels when he moves to catch it.
Consider this, if you throw me a pass in the backcourt i can throw ball off opponents backboard and run and get it. if you throw me a pass i can then throw it off the official and run and get it. Those are considered dribbles. However, under your interpretation, if you pass me the ball and i throw it off my backboard, never having dribbled, i can't run and get it..even though my backboard is "legal equipment."

I agree that 9.5 says throwing ball off the backboard isn't a dribble. however, it is still something. when you say he can't retrieve it you are making it as if it didn't happen... a player is running to catch a pass to himself. I think the "legal equipment" phrase means something more. After all, there's nothing inherently illegal about throwing the ball off the opponent's backboard or an official.

9.5 is meant to expand rights of A1. Using its language to then call travel has the effect of restricting them. That isn't its intent in my view.

Finally, the college play says A1 ends dribble, throws ball off backboard, follows it (runs) catches it while both feet in the air and then dunks. Under your interpretation the play would have been illegal the moment A1 caught the ball off the board. He ran and retrieved it. The fact that he dunked it afterwards shouldn't matter. That's not what it says.

I don't recommend anyone call the play travel if the player runs to catch the ball off the backboard or double dribble if he then puts it on the floor after the catch. Everyone will have to decide for themselves. The end….

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Dad

... only looking at the NFHS rules it never says it's legal to purposely throw it off your own backboard and then retrieve it/dribble again.

Partially agree.

Retrieving the ball is legal, not according to the rules, but according to the casebook play, the NFHS says that it's legal. It's there in black and white.

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which throws the
ball against his own backboard and catches the ball. RULING: Legal.

Dribbling again? I'm of the the opinion that the player can't dribble again. I see nothing in the rules, or in the casebook, that allows him to dribble again, assuming that it's not deemed to be a try.

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended,
unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by OKREF

You can't just throw it off the (your own) backboard and retrieve it.

Actually, according to 9.5 SITUATION, you can. The question being discussed is regarding what the player can, or cannot do, after retrieving the ball off the backboard, assuming that the player has already ended his dribble, and the official deems this not to be a shot. Can the player legally start a new dribble (as after a try)? Also, does it matter whether, or not, the player moves his feet before retrieving the ball off the backboard?

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an
official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and
(c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official
constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Dad

I agree with this.

Originally Posted by Dad

What you highlighted and what you said are contradicting each other. Am I missing something?

In an attempt to score (try)

Really?

[Dad]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Really?

Originally Posted by OKREF

This says that after coming to a stop, throwing (not attempting a shot)

Case book

4.15.4 C

After dribbling and coming to a stop, A1 throws the ball: (c) against his/her own backboard in an attempt to score (try), catches the rebound and dribbles again.

You said (not attempting a shot) but the case book play says "in an attempt to score(try)"

[deecee]

This is one of the stupidest arguments on here to date. The assumption that one would throw the ball of ANY backboard and NOT move their feet is completely absurd. For all intensive purposes a player throwing the ball towards their basket/backboard is a shot attempt in my book. I'm not intelligent enough to read into every "may", "deem" or officials "point of view" in the rule book. I work with my limitations and just call it like I see it.

Ball towards basket = shot attempt.