Fumbled Ball (cont)

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by requintero

Regarding your scenario (B), under 9.5 in the Case Book if A1 throws the ball against the opponent's backboard and is the first to touch the ball, this is Rule 9-5 illegal dribble violation. (Note: A1 could have thrown the ball against her own backboard.)

Originally Posted by Dad

Not entirely true, unless it was ruled an attempt at a shot. Own backboard is part of a teams equipment(example: Jersey).

Actually, it is.

The ruling is that a ball thrown off a player's own backboard my be legally retrieved by that player without regard to whether you think it was a shot or not.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The ruling is that a ball thrown off a player's own backboard my be legally retrieved by that player without regard to whether you think it was a shot or not.

Agree.

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an
official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and
(c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official
constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

According to this ruling, can said player legally start a dribble if he had already ended his dribble before the ball hit the backboard (assuming the official deems this not to be a try)? Also, this ruling doesn't stipulate whether, or not, the player moves his feet during this situation. What other "equipment" (why the NFHS quotes?) may be used in this manner? Headbands?

This not my favorite casebook play. In my opinion this citation provides more questions than answers. I wish the NFHS would expound upon this play and give a more complete answer.

How about: Any ball thrown off a players own basket, or backboard, is to always be considered a try? Now that would be nice, wouldn't it? Unfortunately the NFHS hasn't made that ruling yet.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree.

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and (c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

According to this ruling, can said player legally start a dribble if he had already ended his dribble before the ball hit the backboard (assuming the official deems this not to be a try)? Also, this ruling doesn't stipulate whether, or not, the player moves his feet during this situation. What other "equipment" (why the NFHS quotes?) may be used in this manner? Headbands?

This not my favorite casebook play. In my opinion this citation provides more questions than answers. I wish the NFHS would expound upon this play and give a more complete answer.

How about: Any ball thrown off a players own basket, or backboard, is to always be considered a try? Now that would be nice, wouldn't it? Unfortunately the NFHS hasn't made that ruling yet.

While it has many of the effects of a try, it really isn't. Thus, your suggestion isn't quite fitting.

I think that, yes, the player can then dribble. The player can move his/her feet.

I believe the idea is that, in order to remove ambiguity in the action, treat it as if it were a shot (don't call any violations) except that it isn't a since it isn't an attempt to throw in into the basket. So, if it doesn't hit the board at all, the player would still be subject to traveling since it wasn't a shot.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I think that, yes, the player can then dribble.

Rule citation please (assume the player already ended his dribble and the official deemed this play not to be a shot).

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended,
unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Actually, it is.

The ruling is that a ball thrown off a player's own backboard my be legally retrieved by that player without regard to whether you think it was a shot or not.

Where does it say anything about being able to throw it off your own backboard and moving both feet to retrieve it? It doesn't count as a dribble if you throw it off your shoes/shorts/jersey/etc. You still can't run to get it.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Dad

Where does it say anything about being able to throw it off your own backboard and moving both feet to retrieve it? It doesn't count as a dribble if you throw it off your shoes/shorts/jersey/etc. You still can't run to get it.

See above. 9.5.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by BigCat

See above. 9.5.

Read it yourself, my point still stands. When is equipment anything other than something you wear? This is an exception in that you can throw the ball off the backboard and catch it without it being a dribble. You can not throw it off the backboard, take steps, and then catch it.

[Dad]

Wrongly stated, it's not even an exception. It's just considered equipment. The rules for an illegal dribble still stand. Nothing even hints at being able to circumvent the rule(s).

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Dad

Wrongly stated, it's not even an exception. It's just considered equipment. The rules for an illegal dribble still stand. Nothing even hints at being able to circumvent the rule(s).

It isn't so explicitly spelled out but the whole point of the case play is to declare that throwin it off your own backboard ends player such that ut allows for the player to dribble again, supersedes the travel rule, etc

While it isn't from the NFHS book, the rules around this are exactly the same and here is what the NCAA book says...

A.R. 105. A1 intercepts a pass and dribbles toward A’s basket for a breakaway
layup. Near A’s free-throw line, A1 legally stops and ends his dribble. A1 throws the ball against A’s backboard and follows the throw. While airborne,
A1 rebounds the ball off the backboard and dunks.

RULING: The play shall be legal since the backboard is located in A1’s frontcourt, which A1 is entitled to use. (Rule 5-1.1 and .6, and 9-12.1)

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It isn't so explicitly spelled out but the whole point of the case play is to declare that throwin it off your own backboard ends player such that ut allows for the player to dribble again, supersedes the travel rule, etc

While it isn't from the NFHS book, the rules around this are exactly the same and here is what the NCAA book says...

I don't like explaining rules by using rules from another level. I would say it isn't even spelled out slightly. The only conclusion I can come to is throwing it off the backboard isn't a dribble. There's no feasible way for me to conclude, in NFHS, that it's okay to start another dribble after throwing it off the backboard.

Either you can throw it off your backboard and take steps/start another dribble, or you can do neither. Any middle ground makes absolutely no sense(to me).

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Dad

Read it yourself, my point still stands. When is equipment anything other than something you wear? This is an exception in that you can throw the ball off the backboard and catch it without it being a dribble. You can not throw it off the backboard, take steps, and then catch it.

Save the attitude...please....Equipment is "other than something you wear" when the ball is thrown off your backboard. The backboard is your "team's equipment." As I said earlier, see 9.5. Only said as a reference and not as smart....s

Now, you think the play means I can throw ball off my backboard but, if not a try, I can't move to catch it. When, in the history of basketball, have you seen such a play? Never...what you may have seen is the player throw ball off his backboard, run and dunk, or like Michigan play posted here long ago.

You can read 9.5 the way you are but I think it's wayy to narrow.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Save the attitude...please....Equipment is "other than something you wear" when the ball is thrown off your backboard. The backboard is your "team's equipment." As I said earlier, see 9.5. Only said as a reference and not as smart....s

Now, you think the play means I can throw ball off my backboard but, if not a try, I can't move to catch it. When, in the history of basketball, have you seen such a play? Never...what you may have seen is the player throw ball off his backboard, run and dunk, or like Michigan play posted here long ago.

You can read 9.5 the way you are but I think it's wayy to narrow.

I was trying to point out the case book doesn't say you can take steps or dribble again. Only that if you throw it off your backboard and catch it it doesn't count as a dribble. In my mind the rule book is narrow and should probably just follow along with NCAA, and if they are, at least state it clearly.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Dad

Read it yourself, my point still stands. When is equipment anything other than something you wear? This is an exception in that you can throw the ball off the backboard and catch it without it being a dribble. You can not throw it off the backboard, take steps, and then catch it.

And..the backboard is the "teams equipment." Clearly I can't bounce the ball off of my own foot, run and catch it in air... but if you are on my team and I throw it off your "equipment"(shoe) I can do whatever I want. To say that the backboard is the same as a player's own shoe or shirt doesn't work.

I think the case play and the "equipment" language comes out of thin air when it comes to rules but they want the specific play I mentioned above to be legal. Too narrow for me to agree that the play means player can throw it off backboard but can't move to get it. That never happens so no need to have a play saying it legal...