State Tournament Assignments

[VaTerp]

Curious on the state tournament assignment process in other states, how often the same officials get assigned, and the pool of state tournament level officials.

In VA, state tournament assigments start at the quarterfinals. Generally speaking, association commissioners put forward a pool of officials with the state sanctioning body selecting officials and making assignments.

Quarterfinal crews are all from the same association, are likely selected by their commissioner, and travel to another part of the state for the assingment. Semi-finals and Finals are all played at VCU and involve mixed crews assigned by the state body.

It seems that mostly the same officials are in Richmond every year. There are always newer officials worked in but again, you see a lot of the same faces, as would be expected.

I've heard that the state body will now limit officias to 3 consecutive years of semi or finals assigments. On its face this seems like a good idea, though I do wonder about the pool of state level officials in some areas.

Curious to thoughts on this and how things are handled in other states.

[JRutledge]

In our state they rotate us around a lot. And it is said that we will only work 3 state finals and that is it. Well that is kind of true, but is not always for a lot of reasons. Also that stated limit applies to what you did in one gender. You could work both genders theoretically, but most officials never wish or never get the opportunity to work both. For example I never put in for girls playoffs so I will never work those games and never have in my career.

But they rotate guys around and even if you work a state final one year, there is no guarantee you will even go back. There are many guys who have worked twice and have never gotten the opportunity again or go several years before they get that possible "third" shot.

For example last year when I went to the State Finals, there is a total of 12 officials that work the weekend in the particular classes. In my group 4 of us were first timers (or rookies), 8 of the officials had been previously. Four of the officials had been the year before. The other 4 had not been in at least a couple of years and 2 of those had not been in about 3 years. So in our state they move people around and it takes time to get through our process.

Peace

[BatteryPowered]

Unless I misunderstood, in Texas the first two rounds of the playoffs are assigned by the local chapter. The participating schools agree on the chapter to use and typically leave it to the chapter to select the officials.

For the Regional and State levels, each chapter submits a list of recommendations to the UIL (State governing body)...I think they are allowed 20 names on each list (you will often see names on both list). The UIL, probably in conjunction with the THSBOA, selects officials for the regional and state tournaments...for both boys and girls. I am not sure if an official will work a regional tournament and the state tournament in the same year. Here, each classification (1A through 6A) has their Final Four in the same place...girls one week, boys the next...on Thursday - Saturday. Twelve crews of 4 are assigned to State and the crews that work the finals are selected after the semi-finals (the typically avoid putting a crew in a game with a school from their area).

This year our chapter has an official working his third straight state tournament. A few years ago our chapter could not work a finals game as a team from our coverage area was in every finals.

[mtn335]

In Washington, the "regional" round (state round of 16) and state finals are both assigned by the Washington Officials' Association from nominations by local associations.

Allotments to the local associations are based proportionally on number of certified officials and number of schools served (with equal weight); local associations have freedom to make those nominations as they choose. Some use their year-end ratings from previous season (mine); others combine those with a mid-year rating; still others, the board decides; there may be others.

The regional round mixes officials from different associations; my game this past weekend I (from Snohomish County north of Seattle) worked with a Seattle official and one from the Vancouver (WA) area. Travel exists but is rarely more than an hour or two.

The 3 state tournament sites each get 12 boys' officials and 12 girls' officials. They work two classifications at each site, so two 8-team tournaments, over 3 days (2 games each day except saturday, where some only get 1) with crews mixing. Each of the 12 gets a semifinal; two crews of 3 receive a final based on a mix of evaluator and peer ratings.

[Valley Man]

To me the system here in VA is flawed in the fact that on the biggest stage you get "all star" crews that have not worked together. Shouldn't the biggest games of the year have officials that at least have worked with each other? I know all officials follow the same rules and such, but we all know that a crew that works together usually has a better game. More consistency in play calling, handling coaches, handling players and overall gamesmanship.

If it were me, I would have associations across the state send crews of 3 and maybe even work multiple games at the state if needed.

Just my .02 worth

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Valley Man

To me the system here in VA is flawed in the fact that on the biggest stage you get "all star" crews that have not worked together. Shouldn't the biggest games of the year have officials that at least have worked with each other? I know all officials follow the same rules and such, but we all know that a crew that works together usually has a better game. More consistency in play calling, handling coaches, handling players and overall gamesmanship.

If it were me, I would have associations across the state send crews of 3 and maybe even work multiple games at the state if needed.

Just my .02 worth

If you know how to work the system and the mechanics, you do not need to work with someone IMO at all. I work with many officials that I have never worked with and we are fine. Now if you have a system that only allows officials to work with the same guys all year, then that might be considered, but working together IMO should not be a prerequisite for who works playoff games. But again this could be a local thing.

Also our officials are assigned mostly by a cross-section of areas, association affiliation really does not come into play in our area. So if a team comes from my area, I would not be prevented from working their games in the post season either. We are assigned games during the regular season like the NCAA assigns officials. We work for each conference and we might get teams we have had previously during the year or even during the playoffs in some cases.

Peace

[Valley Man]

I am not saying that working together is a pre-requisite. I am saying that sending crews from an association and those guys have worked together it lends itself to having a more consistently called game.

I am not saying that Semis and Finals are called badly, just seems to me to be a flaw to have nominations and then asking them to work what may be the biggest game they have ever worked with partners that they have no clue about.

[BryanV21]

As for working with the same people or crew, I find that oftentimes I'm more "with it" when working with different people. That's not to say I'm lazy when working with my crew, but when I'm working with other people I don't know how good or bad they are. For example, I pay more attention to making sure my mechanics are 100% so our communication is as good as possible.

As for how playoffs are assigned in central Ohio (other parts of Ohio may be different... I don't know) voting is done by each local association. My association has around 400 members, and each of them can vote for as many officials as possible for the boys and/or girls playoffs. I believe each association gets to send a certain percentage of their members to the playoffs, so the larger your association the smaller your chances of getting in. I can't remember for sure, but I believe votes are weighted based on how long the voting member has been certified.

Once you are voted in, I don't know how it's determined how many games or how far into the playoffs you officiate. But it seems to be up to whoever assigns the games. Like, they can pick from the pool of officials that got voted in.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Valley Man

I am not saying that working together is a pre-requisite. I am saying that sending crews from an association and those guys have worked together it lends itself to having a more consistently called game.

What they do not teach the same things? Again if we are working the same system, why would consistency be different?

Peace

[griblets]

In FL, associations submit crews, ranked 1 through whatever, to the FHSAA, who then assign games to the associations for Regional rounds (32, 16, 8). We have 8 classes, so there are a lot of games. Associations might send out as many as 7 or 8 crews in the early rounds and as few as none each round thereafter. The final four and finals are assigned by FHSAA to an association, which chooses a crew, usually its highest ranked. A crew cannot officiate a game for any team more than once in the post season. Also, associations cannot officiate post season games for schools with which they are contracted during the season.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

...
Quarterfinal crews are all from the same association, are likely selected by their commissioner, and travel to another part of the state for the assingment. ....

Crews don't necessarily have to travel for the quarter-finals. I believe (and I may be wrong) that the VHSL avoids having crews work games involving teams they officiate during the regular season. There are 3 different associations who work public school games here in Hampton Roads (ODU site), so it's possible for a local crew to work.

Also, you have my son's school, which is playing its games (girls and boys) as the #1 6A South seed up in Richmond instead of at ODU in Norfolk. So I can conceive of the Richmond board (my association) working that game.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Valley Man

To me the system here in VA is flawed in the fact that on the biggest stage you get "all star" crews that have not worked together. Shouldn't the biggest games of the year have officials that at least have worked with each other? I know all officials follow the same rules and such, but we all know that a crew that works together usually has a better game. More consistency in play calling, handling coaches, handling players and overall gamesmanship.

If it were me, I would have associations across the state send crews of 3 and maybe even work multiple games at the state if needed.

Just my .02 worth

An official good enough to the work the VHSL Final Four should be able to work with new guy/gals. College officials often work with officials they have never worked with before.

[deecee]

A good official can work with anyone anytime.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

An official good enough to the work the VHSL Final Four should be able to work with new guy/gals. College officials often work with officials they have never worked with before.

I worked with a guy in the State Finals last year that I never worked with and we did fine. And the head official told us that our game was a great example of how officials from different areas can work together. We had no major problems whatsoever.

Peace

[VaTerp]

Interesting that in WA and TX the finals crew seems to be selected from the crews that worked the semis or previous rounds if I'm understanding correctly.

Seems like it could cause some scheduling conflicts not knowing if you are working a final until after the semis and also seems to limit the pool of officials getting games. Does seem to have the potential to reward the best officials based on performance in the state playoffs.

I'm still curious about limits on how many state games an official gets. The example from IL of 3 Finals period for officials seems a bit extreme to me but I can see the rationale.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Crews don't necessarily have to travel for the quarter-finals. I believe (and I may be wrong) that the VHSL avoids having crews work games involving teams they officiate during the regular season. There are 3 different associations who work public school games here in Hampton Roads (ODU site), so it's possible for a local crew to work.

Also, you have my son's school, which is playing its games (girls and boys) as the #1 6A South seed up in Richmond instead of at ODU in Norfolk. So I can conceive of the Richmond board (my association) working that game.

True. They don't always travel but usually do and my guess is for the same reason you mentioned. BTW I will be at ODU on Saturday. Will you be around? I'll PM you.

Originally Posted by Valley Man

I am not saying that working together is a pre-requisite. I am saying that sending crews from an association and those guys have worked together it lends itself to having a more consistently called game.

I am not saying that Semis and Finals are called badly, just seems to me to be a flaw to have nominations and then asking them to work what may be the biggest game they have ever worked with partners that they have no clue about.

There is certainly some comfort in working with people you are familiar with but I think they want mixed crews so you don't have all of the officials from one area covering teams from where they live. Or exclude all of the officials from the areas that have the most teams in the semis and finals.

i've had no issues with the mixed crews I've been a part of. This is where a thorough pre-game is important. To discuss officiating philosophy and how we see the game. Officials good enough to be assigned these games can make adjustments and get on the same page as their partners rather quickly. Also many of the officials know each other from working college games, seeing each other at camps, or even previous state tournys. I don't think its an issue at all.