"Let the Lead Have 1st Crack"

[packersowner]

First, let me say this again, thank you for posting. You are opening yourself to critique, but these plays and video make us all better.

I am sure there are differing opinions on this, but one thing I noticed on your table reporting mechanic. You called opposite table, then ran baseline, presumably past your partner to go to the table. I was always taught to go outside of the players on a play like this, not inside. A couple of reasons for this, this keeps the majority of the players in front of you as you are going to the table. Your T is watching this, but if your partner started to rotate, it places more responsibility on your T. It also in this situation, prevents you from running directly in front of the bench and keeps you more front and center to the table.

The other thing that makes this challenging is your transition rotation, assuming your throw in was on the table side of the lane, presumably you went to the new L, your C became the T and your T became the C. NFHS officials manuals never show positioning for a throw in from outside of your PCA. Sometimes these become the most challenging, or at least for me they do.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I mostly like letting Lead have first crack but it kinda screwed me on a recent play I had: https://streamable.com/hck2. (Ignore the sound, the timing of the whistle is off)

In my opinion this should be Slot's play despite being semi-transition.

Your play happened outside the paint and the C had a clear view of the defender's positioning, he should have had that whistle.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Yeah Slot in that clip didn't blow cuz it was a transition play and said Lead should get all transition plays. He also thought it was a secondary defender play and Lead should get all secondary defender plays.

I think we can all agree that this play was something -- certainly not a no-call with both players on the floor. So I had a delayed cadence whistle from Lead and came out with a charge based on my view of the defender being legal initially and moving obliquely to maintain that legal position. I think it's a block however and also think I should have come out much stronger.

I would've made the same call you did from either angle if I had to blow my whistle. Don't agree with your partner and I was a bit let down he never even made an attempt to get a better angle.

I think no-call is an option here. Angle isn't very good and after watching it once the offense could've made contact and the defender flopped. Some offensive players make it look like a car hit them on drives, so just because both players are on the ground doesn't mean I'm definitely blowing a whistle.

Anyway, good call with the information you did have. Hats off to you for posting your plays on here and letting us take a look at them.

[tnolan]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Yeah Slot in that clip didn't blow cuz it was a transition play and said Lead should get all transition plays. He also thought it was a secondary defender play and Lead should get all secondary defender plays.

I think we can all agree that this play was something -- certainly not a no-call with both players on the floor. So I had a delayed cadence whistle from Lead and came out with a charge based on my view of the defender being legal initially and moving obliquely to maintain that legal position. I think it's a block however and also think I should have come out much stronger.

awesome clip! good on you for sharing it!

my 2 cents...
at least you had something. and it's easy to go back and decide on block when you see it on tape vs. live action. something i've done many times..."man, that looked good live but now....i'm not so sure." your takeaway needs to be that you had a call when there was contact.

i'll agree with what Dad said as well. it's tough at Lead or Center to see if there was even contact or if the defender flopped....tough one. but at least you had the call.

i'd argue with your Center's logic on his no call. i wouldn't call that a fast break, but i also wouldn't call it a set play either. kinda right in between.
still, i like this to come from Center...
also, i know i'm splitting hairs here and that the defense appears to be setting up in zone (maybe) but if the dude that took the charge is the secondary defender, then who was the primary defender?

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Your play happened outside the paint and the C had a clear view of the defender's positioning, he should have had that whistle.

I agree its the Cs call as the entire play happens in his primary, its a "secondary" play and not really transition, and he should have picked up that defender. That's what he needed to anticipate to have to referree as the offensive player is headed toward the basket.

I agree with Arem's second opinion that its a block. But do think the play needed a whistle and the reasoning he gave for the call were valid. I would not like working with a partner who thinks the L should get "all" transition plays as was apparently said here. Whats the point of 3-man if you don't have a strong C for plays like this?

And I'd ignore any issue with the route you took to report. As you said maybe you could have been stronger with the prelim but I would have gone the same route, especially since the C should be replacing you as the L and you will be the new T tableside.

[biggravy]

I also thank you for posting this. It helps us all get better. A strong C will have this play. From L you did what you needed to do by having a patient whistle. Are you guessing? A little. But you articulated why you had what you had and I like the thought process. I know there are strong opinions both ways, but I like having a whistle on all crashes. It was close to a 50/50 and a case could be made for a block or shipping this. Bottom line, if C stays with the drive and steps down to get an angle he can be in the best position to make this call. Some people seem to have this thought that as C they can't go below the FTLE. I'm stepping down to get an angle.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by biggravy

I also thank you for posting this. It helps us all get better. A strong C will have this play. From L you did what you needed to do by having a patient whistle. Are you guessing? A little. But you articulated why you had what you had and I like the thought process. I know there are strong opinions both ways, but I like having a whistle on all crashes. It was close to a 50/50 and a case could be made for a block or shipping this. Bottom line, if C stays with the drive and steps down to get an angle he can be in the best position to make this call. Some people seem to have this thought that as C they can't go below the FTLE. I'm stepping down to get an angle.

Did you mean to say stepping down? I'm going the other way and getting a great angle.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Dad

Did you mean to say stepping down? I'm going the other way and getting a great angle.

Going the other way will cause you to be straight-lined.

Upon further thought I think it's a block if C calls it, but should be a no-call from Lead. Tough play on the weak side block (where we miss the most calls) and since the ball goes in a play-on if preferable to guessing and possibly calling a weak charge and wiping the shot.

My route to the table was simple in my mind: swing by the offensive player to grab the number, go around the players instead of through, and head to new Lead (long switch). Had the benefit of taking me by the bench where the coach was questioning the call.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Going the other way will cause you to be straight-lined.

Moving down is just going to give him the same or worse view.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Upon further thought I think it's a block if C calls it, but should be a no-call from Lead. Tough play on the weak side block (where we miss the most calls) and since the ball goes in a play-on if preferable to guessing and possibly calling a weak charge and wiping the shot.

My route to the table was simple in my mind: swing by the offensive player to grab the number, go around the players instead of through, and head to new Lead (long switch). Had the benefit of taking me by the bench where the coach was questioning the call.

What did the defense do wrong for the C to call a block?

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by tnolan

awesome clip! good on you for sharing it!

my 2 cents...
at least you had something. and it's easy to go back and decide on block when you see it on tape vs. live action. something i've done many times..."man, that looked good live but now....i'm not so sure." your takeaway needs to be that you had a call when there was contact.

i'll agree with what Dad said as well. it's tough at Lead or Center to see if there was even contact or if the defender flopped....tough one. but at least you had the call.

i'd argue with your Center's logic on his no call. i wouldn't call that a fast break, but i also wouldn't call it a set play either. kinda right in between.
still, i like this to come from Center...
also, i know i'm splitting hairs here and that the defense appears to be setting up in zone (maybe) but if the dude that took the charge is the secondary defender, then who was the primary defender?

I'd call this "in transition," but definitely a call that C should make.


My question as well. Again, why I think that this is C's call.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Upon further thought I think it's a block if C calls it, but should be a no-call from Lead. Tough play on the weak side block (where we miss the most calls) and since the ball goes in a play-on if preferable to guessing and possibly calling a weak charge and wiping the shot.

My route to the table was simple in my mind: swing by the offensive player to grab the number, go around the players instead of through, and head to new Lead (long switch). Had the benefit of taking me by the bench where the coach was questioning the call.

I'm fine with you putting a whistle on this. The contact put the shooter on the ground and I'm not comfortable calling it incidental here.

As the L, I likely would've pinched the paint here -- likely about halfway into the lane to receive this play. Still not a great look, but not entirely straightlined, either.

That said, C's call.

Originally Posted by Dad

What did the defense do wrong for the C to call a block?

Defender starts falling early and trips the offensive player with his legs. Plus defender may not be legal because he is no longer in the 'path' of the opponent.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Dad

Did you mean to say stepping down? I'm going the other way and getting a great angle.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Going the other way will cause you to be straight-lined.

Originally Posted by Dad

Moving down is just going to give him the same or worse view.

Looking at it again, I think neither up nor down is going to help. Stepping directly on to the court 2 steps would get the best look.