Coach appears to headbutt official

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Camron:

I agree with you about the charging call. While I have no problem with the L making a call on this play, the C had the best look at the play and if there were (and I do not know if there was) a double whistle, the L should have let the C take the call.

Mark, Jr., and I had a similar situation last night in our 8th grade boys' game. I was L, opposite the Table, when A1 drove from above the FT extended but just on the opposite the Table of the side of the court. A1, while airborne, slammed into B1 who was standing in the middle of the FTL just in front of the Basket. We had a double whistle and while the contact was in my PCA I let Mark have the call because he had the best look of the whole play while I had to look through a group of players to see A1. To be honest, I had a charge by A1, but by letting Mark (the official who had the best look at the whole play) we got the call correct because it was a Block by B1.

MTD, Sr.

P.S. I hope that official presses charges against the HC.

Secondary defender, play's in the lane. This belongs 100% to the L.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Rich

Secondary defender, play's in the lane. This belongs 100% to the L.

There is no such animal as a "secondary defender" in NFHS Basketball Rules (Remember: The reason the LGP rule is written as it is, is because the Player in control of the Ball should expect to be guarded from the instant that he/she gains PC until he/she is not longer in PC.).

I don't have a problem with a double whistle (C and L) on this play. And from where A1 started his drive down the lane I would expect that C would have the best look at the whole play. But, from the video, it appeared that C was not very engaged in officiating the play. He did not close down on the drive to get a good look at the play and instead took the "Leaning Tower of Pizza" approach to look around a couple of players that were between him and the play, and never had a whistle on the play. Once the L made the call he seemed to not even be interested in keeping a foot in the bucket to be in the proper position in case Team A pressed when Team B inbounded the Ball on the End Line after the PCF.

And as much as I love calling a charge (And I do resemble the L in the video: short, stout, and bald, .), if I were the L in this play and the C also had a whistle, I would have defered to the C.

Even after the assault by the HC he was very slow moving in getting to point of the confrontation. I have not watched the whole game but in the snippet of video I did watch of the play he just seemed like he did not want to be on the court. His body language just did not look good.

MTD, Sr.

[JRutledge]

Mark is right there is no secondary defender in the NF rules. But also we overuse that term IMO as I can see a secondary defender as an outside official if the play is in the lane. In some cases, the secondary defender is more clearly seen by the C or T as they saw where they came from, unobstructed.

I totally disagree that someone other than the L cannot call a foul on a secondary defender when they see the play the entire way. The secondary defender is only involved in the NCAA (Men's) if the defender is in the Restricted Area. Outside of that, the secondary defender is not a factor in a call in the lane other than if there is a double whistle who gets the call. I have talked with many that modify that based on the play or situation.

Peacer

[Welpe]

I find it incredibly disappointing that there are more than a few of our own officials that want to pin some part of the blame on the official for getting headbutted (and he did get headbutted per at least two of the videos I've seen).

It's one thing how to discuss the best way to handle unusual situations but an official NEVER deserves to be assaulted/battered for doing his job. We already have enough non-officials that think we deserve it, no need to help them out by doing it to ourselves.

[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I find it incredibly disappointing that there are more than a few of our own officials that want to pin some part of the blame on the official for getting headbutted (and he did get headbutted per at least two of the videos I've seen).

It's one thing how to discuss the best way to handle unusual situations but an official NEVER deserves to be assaulted/battered for doing his job. We already have enough non-officials that think we deserve it, no need to help them out by doing it to ourselves.

No one on here has remotely suggested that the official deserved it or that the coach was way out of line regardless of what preceded it. But, for heaven's sake, this is a place for referees to discuss how to be effective, not just to bash moron coaches (even when they deserve it). Discussing what the referee(s) could have done differently to make the escalation less likely is an important aspect for referees to improve. Don't misread that as anyone trying to exonerate the moron coach in this case.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

There is no such animal as a "secondary defender" in NFHS Basketball Rules (Remember: The reason the LGP rule is written as it is, is because the Player in control of the Ball should expect to be guarded from the instant that he/she gains PC until he/she is not longer in PC.).

I don't have a problem with a double whistle (C and L) on this play. And from where A1 started his drive down the lane I would expect that C would have the best look at the whole play. But, from the video, it appeared that C was not very engaged in officiating the play. He did not close down on the drive to get a good look at the play and instead took the "Leaning Tower of Pizza" approach to look around a couple of players that were between him and the play, and never had a whistle on the play. Once the L made the call he seemed to not even be interested in keeping a foot in the bucket to be in the proper position in case Team A pressed when Team B inbounded the Ball on the End Line after the PCF.

And as much as I love calling a charge (And I do resemble the L in the video: short, stout, and bald, .), if I were the L in this play and the C also had a whistle, I would have defered to the C.

Even after the assault by the HC he was very slow moving in getting to point of the confrontation. I have not watched the whole game but in the snippet of video I did watch of the play he just seemed like he did not want to be on the court. His body language just did not look good.

MTD, Sr.

Who cares what it says in the rules book? Terms that teach people how to officiate don't have to appear in a rules book.

Whose primary is the person who got hit in the *entire* time? How is an outside person supposed to pick that person up and judge if he establishes and maintains legal guarding position?

This play isn't even close -- it's an obvious block.

[packersowner]

OTHER OBSERVATIONS FROM THIS GAME

So I went back to about the 1 hour 29 minute mark of this game to see what led up to some of this which is always hard from just a video, but there are a few observations that I believe are good reminders for us all.

1. There is an earlier block/charge call where a block was called, very similar but called differently than what led up to this play.

2. There is a tie up between two players at mid-court and then again in the back court, no call was made, but coaches were upset at this.

3. Then we have a 3 made by white, followed by a foul by white. White whacks the ball after it (the announcers make the comment, that a technical could have been called).

4. Official notifies white coach of 5th foul, white coach is standing about 10 feet out on the court during the replacement period.

5. Then after the 5th foul but before the head butt, you see a white player just casually standing next to the table, why is the bench personnel standing at this point?

Then the head butt......I have these questions.

1. Why does the 3rd official run in leave the middle of the court where most of the players are standing? What if a fight had broken out on the court?

2. Why is the orange player allowed to linger by white's bench after the technicals. His teammate actually comes in to clear him out.

3. After the two technicals, why is the majority of the white bench still standing?


Listen don't take this the wrong way, in the moment there is a lot is going on, but I think they are lucky this didn't escalate even further.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by packersowner

OTHER OBSERVATIONS FROM THIS GAME

So I went back to about the 1 hour 29 minute mark of this game to see what led up to some of this which is always hard from just a video, but there are a few observations that I believe are good reminders for us all.

1. There is an earlier block/charge call where a block was called, very similar but called differently than what led up to this play.

You know, I couldn't possibly give a crap about this.

Every play is a snowflake --I'm not going to kick the shit out of one just so it looks like we "call it the same at both ends."

I think the play before the head butt was a pretty obvious block. Let's say that the same play was incorrectly called a charge at the other end -- the whole notion that I should just kick one to high heaven in the name of consistency is just appalling to me.

[packersowner]

Originally Posted by Rich

You know, I couldn't possibly give a crap about this.

Every play is a snowflake --I'm not going to kick the shit out of one just so it looks like we "call it the same at both ends."

I think the play before the head butt was a pretty obvious block. Let's say that the same play was incorrectly called a charge at the other end -- the whole notion that I should just kick one to high heaven in the name of consistency is just appalling to me.

I wasn't stating whether it was consistent or inconsistent, just that the same play happened minutes before this play and was called one way. It was not a situation where it was called on the other end differently. If I am coach though, and in my opinion have the same play in a row, one time a charge and one time a block, a coach is absolutely going to ask for consistency. Its the same reason officials will say, if its a foul in minute 1 its a foul in minute 31. Now that being said, maybe both calls were exactly correct, but I can guarantee you the coach won't see that way in the heat of the moment.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by packersowner

I wasn't stating whether it was consistent or inconsistent, just that the same play happened minutes before this play and was called one way. It was not a situation where it was called on the other end differently. If I am coach though, and in my opinion have the same play in a row, one time a charge and one time a block, a coach is absolutely going to ask for consistency. Its the same reason officials will say, if its a foul in minute 1 its a foul in minute 31. Now that being said, maybe both calls were exactly correct, but I can guarantee you the coach won't see that way in the heat of the moment.

No two plays are exactly alike. And, yes, I've said that to coaches before.