Please Explain This Call (Video)

[Dad]

[QUOTE=SAJ;971893]Ball was tipped away by White 4 before coming into the front court, thus it never had front court status.

Still team control. Red dribbles it while having FC status and what we're talking about is if the ball hit the line or not. The tip is irrelevant

I don't really see a foul by White 4 before that, but there was one by White 34 before the girls went to the floor.

That's a foul on white #4. Whether you want to call it or not is up to you.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BigCat

...

It may not be practical for you to actually try to referee. But what you can do, and what you should do, is take a stand against the idiot yelling at the girl bringing the ball up the floor. Parents like this ruin youth sports. It doesnt help the girl he's yelling at and im sure his own daughter doesnt think much of his yelling either.

Exactly, to me that has the most negative impact of anything I saw in that video.

Originally Posted by xyrph

No, I cannot explain why people watching the game say what they say.

What an odd question, and not very helpful.

This wrong call happened literally directly in front of the ref. The only way to miss it was with eyes closed.

I can tell you what is frustrating from a parents perspective is that most refs have zero humility, and act as if they are never ever wrong. Around here they do not answer questions.

In this particular case the woman ref comes over pronouncing that this "foul" was white #4's 5th foul and the removed her from the game. Turns out it was only her fourth foul and they corrected it a few minutes later, allowing her back in after critical moment of the game had transpired.

And, all four of her "fouls" were just as obviously suspect.

If you can't explain why the people watching the game say what they say then how do you expect us to explain the officials thoughts on why he called the way he did?

And without talking to the table personnel you can't blame the "woman ref" for removing W4 from the game....if the table says that's five fouls the it's on them. It's not the officials fault if the table screws up.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by xyrph

No, I cannot explain why people watching the game say what they say.

What an odd question, and not very helpful.

This wrong call happened literally directly in front of the ref. The only way to miss it was with eyes closed.

I can tell you what is frustrating from a parents perspective is that most refs have zero humility, and act as if they are never ever wrong. Around here they do not answer questions.

In this particular case the woman ref comes over pronouncing that this "foul" was white #4's 5th foul and the removed her from the game. Turns out it was only her fourth foul and they corrected it a few minutes later, allowing her back in after critical moment of the game had transpired.

And, all four of her "fouls" were just as obviously suspect.

Obviously the refs were paid by red. Good grief. They missed a call.

Looks like he was close to being straightlined when the missed push happened. But frankly, if he misses that push, the right call is a foul on white. It happens.

[dsqrddgd909]

Originally Posted by xyrph

This wrong call happened literally directly in front of the ref. The only way to miss it was with eyes closed.

I can tell you what is frustrating from a parents perspective is that most refs have zero humility, and act as if they are never ever wrong. Around here they do not answer questions.

In this particular case the woman ref comes over pronouncing that this "foul" was white #4's 5th foul and the removed her from the game. Turns out it was only her fourth foul and they corrected it a few minutes later, allowing her back in after critical moment of the game had transpired.

And, all four of her "fouls" were just as obviously suspect.

All right, feeling generous today and a little like Scrooge on Christmas Day.

1. There are many ways to miss the call. Straight lined, surprised, tired, frustrated. Sometimes we anticipate a certain call or pass on the initial contact and then have to get the next contact. Some refs have a hard time when the play is chaotic and processing what's a violation, what's a foul and what we can pass on.

2. I *never* interact with fans. Nothing good is going to come from that. The parents have 1 job. Encouraging cheering. That's it.

3. 4th foul / 5th foul is a table problem. If you have a strong crew, one or more may notice a discrepancy, but it's a table responsibility. This issue probably happens about 30% of the time at the JV level and has happened in each of my varsity games this year (all girls games.)

4. Sure probability make me doubt that the refs incorrectly called all 5 fouls.

Passion is a part of sports. It can also greatly color a fan's view of particular plays.

Lastly, most great officials and even very good officials do not want to work a steady diet of girls Varsity games. It may help you to realize that you are going to see errors and inconsistencies regularly.

[Dad]

Is white #4 your kid? I can just smell the bias.

White #4 has an obvious block/forearm.

White #34 could've been called for a foul.

NOW we get to the actual call, where the official may have thought to himself *Well, shoot, I should've had those fouls on white but I let them go thinking she could play through it*

Few probabilities:

1) Official was looking for a reason to give it to red after swallowing his whistle. From the looks of this play and and foul count they probably let too much go. He let too much go and tried to remedy it.

2) Live, it may have looked like she was already falling and red didn't actually push her. Doesn't even look like much of a push in slow motion, though this could've easily been called offensive.

3) Watch his head, doesn't even look like he ever glances at red to replay what just happened in his head. Could've easily just missed it -- we're not perfect.

I'm not saying any of these are good excuses or the correct way to look at the play. This just isn't that big of a deal and it was a messy play. After you let the initial foul go on white #4 it was ugly.

[xyrph]

Originally Posted by Dad

White #4 has an obvious block/forearm.

Thanks for your response, Dad. You at least provide some insight that is helpful.

Regarding the block/forearm can you elaborate, please? Are you referring to what happens at approx. 7 seconds into the clip?

Is a defensive player not allowed to place their arm like that? I know it is a foul if she extends the arm and pushes on the offensive player, but if it is purely defensive I thought this was ok. When I look at that portion of the clip I see the offensive player pushing #4's arm and not the other way around. I'd like to know if this is indeed a foul in this situation committed by #4?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by xyrph

... I'd like to know if this is indeed a foul in this situation committed by #4?

That question has already been answered, but your feelings were too hurt by the other statements made in this thread to pay attention.

[xyrph]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

That question has already been answered, but your feelings were too hurt by the other statements made in this thread to pay attention.

No. Not hurt. I am asking NOW about Dad's comment of the arm bar. Please respond if you have something helpful to say about that item, which has not been discussed at all, except for Dad's assertion.

[BDevil15]

Maybe he is genuinely looking for some insight. Fans are generally the most ignorant population in the gym and maybe he is just looking for some help understanding what a ref might see.

Yes I'm feeling glass half full today.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BDevil15

Maybe he is genuinely looking for some insight. Fans are generally the most ignorant population in the gym and maybe he is just looking for some help understanding what a ref might see.

Yes I'm feeling glass half full today.

Call was missed, pure and simple. That's been acknowledged from the first response. One official is wearing a watch, another is a teenager; this isn't a Final Four crew. What the hell does he hope to accomplish other than embarrass the official who missed the call. There is no insight to be gained. He didn't come here asking about his daughter's forearm and whether it was legal. That would be a legitimate reason to post the video and would be HELPFUL and constructive conversation.

He came here for one reason, to whine about a missed call involving his daughter. I guess the whole officiating community is supposed to give him a collective apology for the injustice.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by xyrph

Thanks for your response, Dad. You at least provide some insight that is helpful.

Regarding the block/forearm can you elaborate, please? Are you referring to what happens at approx. 7 seconds into the clip?

Is a defensive player not allowed to place their arm like that? I know it is a foul if she extends the arm and pushes on the offensive player, but if it is purely defensive I thought this was ok. When I look at that portion of the clip I see the offensive player pushing #4's arm and not the other way around. I'd like to know if this is indeed a foul in this situation committed by #4?

An extended arm bar is now an automatic foul on a ball handler.

A couple years ago they changed the rule from officials making the judgement on defense inhibiting the offense with hands/forearm to making it automatic.

Now an automatic foul:
1) Prolonged one hand on ball handler
2) Two hands on ball handler
3) Forearm on ball handler.
4) Lastly, which can be confusing, is the defender can hot stove touch the offense, but a second touch with either hand is an automatic foul. This doesn't mean you can touch for a second no matter what. Still a judgement call if the hot stove touch gives the defense an advantage.

[SC Official]

When you come on this forum imposing questions and making statements that sound like fanboy talk, expect to be treated like a fanboy.

[Gutierrez7]

Interesting video.

Officiating is all about angles. The camera/fan has one angle;the players have their angle; the coaches have another; the officials have yet another angle.

The camera/fan angle shows a common foul on R21, "push". Therefore, Dead ball, secondary contact may be ruled incidental.

My guess (which officials should never do, but you asked for a possible explanation) appears the Trail official's angle may have not seen the push from R21 and thus only sees W4 illegally contacting R25. Just because there is a loose ball, does not allow players to contact other players illegally. Jumping on a player who has the right to a spot on the floor, if obtained legally is either a common foul or intentional foul, based on severity of contact ruled by the official.

Hopefully that helps. The next time you are enjoying the game and see something from your angle, ask yourself what angle do the officials have. We hope they "move to improve" and get the calls right.

[Camron Rust]

I'm not convinced red 21 actually pushed. Was the arm out there? Yes. Was there contact, probably. I think the white 34 was already going down on top of the other player either way. I think white 34 was tripping over red 25's knee. The arm from red 21 was just incidental to what was already happening.

Could a foul have been called on 4? Sure. But I wouldn't declare it to be incorrect for the lack of a call.