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In the Hula Bowl there was in illegal forward pass on a 99 yard return for a TD of a fumble. Seeing it live, I thought it was a backwards pass, but the replay showed the crew got it right.
The reason this could be such a difficult call is the momentum of the player running at about 18 mph downfield. Here is what I mean. The runner is burning down the field, at 18 mph, and releases the ball at exactly the B-30, with the initial direction parallel or toward the runners endline. The problem is he does not release the ball with much force, so by the time his teammate fields the ball, he is at the B-25. The forward momentum the ball had when being carried by the runner moved the ball 5 more yards downfield, even though the initial direction was backwards. So you cannot go by the point of the release of the ball and the point of the catch, because you would rule forward when it was backwards. Now you see it is backwards, so have no flag down, but it is not going to be that easy to convince the coach of this momentum of the ball reasoning of how he released it backwards but the ball ended up 5 yards further downfield. Your thoughts!? |
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First, the Hula Bowl uses NCAA rules which unlike NFHS rules depend not upon the initial direction of the pass but the yard line where the pass is received relative to the point of release -- they just have enough officials to be able to properly cover it, some NFHS contests still use three.
While I did not see the play from your description it sounds like a breakaway that was covered by a single official who may have not been in position to conclusively rule, therefore, no flag. |
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This is definitely an easier call in NCAA, where is is where he touched it compared to where he released it. I should have stated the "problem" I discussed is an NF one, not NCAA. That would be a nice change for NF. |
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Seems to me that even in NFHS, this is a forward pass. If there was huge wind or something, a ball initially released backward could be blown forward - and on such a ball, the ruling may be different between FED and NCAA because of the way the NCAA rule is written.
However, assuming no ridiculous wind, if the player released the ball at one point, and it was caught at another point forward from there, it was "thrown" forward --- EVEN if it was thrown forward at a lower speed than the player. Think of it this way - when the ball left his hand, was it going forward or backward in relation to the FIELD (not the player). This one was going FORWARD. The definition of a forward pass is the direction IT (the BALL) was going when it left the player's hand - not the INTENT of the player or the direction the ball was going in relation to a moving player. Or - think of it another way. If I'm on an airplane travelling north at 600 mph, and I throw a ball south on the plane at 50 mph, then to everyone on the plane (and myself), it appears I threw the ball south. However, in relation to the ground, the ball was NEVER moving south, even at the instant it left my hand. Because the ball was going forward when it was released, this is a FORWARD pass (and an illegal one in this case). |
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The rediculous wind is the momentum of the player with the ball. |
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You almost made my point for me until that last sentence.
If the ball went forward from the player, then according to every law of physics, the ball was going forward when it left the player's hands. The 18-mile an hour wind that was the player let go of a ball - that ball (minus the "small force" mentioned in the initial post) was, therefore, going forward at 18 mph. THIS WAS A FORWARD PASS. The "initial direction" was "toward the player's endline". The only reason I mention wind is that it IS different from the player. If the player released the ball backward initially, and an outside force (i.e. a strong wind) caused the ball to blow forward, it sounds like FED has a backward pass, while NCAA has a forward pass. But the player's momentum is, as you say, irrelevant - and not sufficient evidence to call this a backward pass. I say again. THIS WAS A FORWARD PASS. |
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Ask yourself, in relation to the field, what is the "initial direction" of the ball? Upfield. Forward pass.
The entire purpose of this rule, by the way, is so that external forces do not turn a backward pass into a forward pass, or vice versa. There is no external force on this play at all. |
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My extent of physics is a few courses/labs in college, so while I understand the vector discussion, I am by no means an expert.
If the "initial motion" of the ball was toward an opponents endline, I would think its "initial direction" was toward that same endline. At the moment the ball leaves the player's hand(s), it is travelling in a certain direction. If there is no wind (or any other outside force), the ball cannot change the direction of travel. If the runner is running downfield at 18 mph, parallel to the sideline (and 18 mph is a figure I got from the initial post), and he throws the ball with a velocity of 5 mph parallel to the sideline toward his own goalline, then the ball still has a velocity of 13 mph downfield, relative to the ground (in the X direction, as defined in a previous post). Again assuming no outside forces, that ball has a relative velocity of 13 mph when it leaves his hand and relative velocity of 13 mph when it reaches the hands of a receiver. Based on this, it would be a foward pass. I believe this came up in the AFC Championship Game a few years ago when NE beat Pittsburgh the first time after a blocked FG by NE. NE returned it for a TD, but there was a question of whether a pass after the ball's recovery was forward or backward. It was ruled backward on the field and replays did not show enough evidence to overturn it.
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If the play is designed to fool someone, make sure you aren't the fool. |
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Physics Rule
If the player releases the ball, backwards, while moving forward at 18mph, it is going backwards and will land (absent a wind) at a location behind where it was thrown. There is no exception to this, as the creation of momentum is impossible (in our universe, if we starting playing football in other universes all bets are off).
Earlier someone said that if it goes backwards at 5mph, the net is a forward of 13mph. Nope. If it is going backwards at 5mph, then it is going backwards at 5mph. You are mistaking the application of force with the velocity I think. The velocity (and direction thereof) is the only thing that matters, the relative application of force (a little forward, a little backward) does not matter, only the net result of velocity. Did Bill Nye Science guy ever tackle this topic? |
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REPLY: Even though I meant my little "treatise" to be tongue-in-cheek, you are making my point exactly. In Federation, you're concerned with the direction of force of the pass, independent of the player's movement. In NCAA, because of their rule, the resultant sum of the player's movement, the initial velocity of the pass, as well as the velocity of the ambient wind will determine whether the pass moves ahead of (illegal) or behind (legal) the point of release.
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Bob M. |
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