Non-Correctable Error

[Refhoop]

Originally Posted by Dad

In whos shoes and was it definitely an over and back? Probably an angel fixing your screw-up.

Once H2 catches in his front court and dribbles in his back courts - it was a back court. Sorry, I should have clarified that point.
In my shoes?

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Refhoop

Once H2 catches in his front court and dribbles in his back courts - it was a back court. Sorry, I should have clarified that point.
In my shoes?

As a basic rule: I would never challenge a partner.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Unprofessional. Not in mechanics manual. Not necessary. Remember it. Rely on the table.

That is not exactly true. It is frowned upon because it looks stupid digging in your pocket constantly to know where the arrow is pointed. You should know this by game situation, just like you know other things. And it is not like people do not forget to move their silly whistle to the other pocket.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Dad

Unprofessional - this doesn't make sense

Not in mechanics manual - doesn't mean anything. Neither is carrying an extra shoe lace, but I looked like a bad-ass when mine broke and I had it fixed in under 40 seconds.

Not necessary - Until it is.

Remember it - good joke

Rely on the table - No.

Maybe these reasons apply for NBA, Big HS/College tourneys, etc. Even then I have still done it. I'm not going to muck up a game because all three of us are looking like idiots debating whether the table just screwed up an AP arrow.

Do you know how many times I had to correct somebody that did not switch the whistle in their pocket?

Sorry, I am not going by your little whistle, I am going to go by when we last changed the arrow and probably will give you the time on the clock without looking. Again it looks stupid constantly digging in your pocket every time there is a held ball or when you change the arrow. It is a crutch.

Peace

[Dad]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Do you know how many times I had to correct somebody that did not switch the whistle in their pocket? Only meaningful on an individual bases

Sorry, I am not going by your little whistle, I am going to go by when we last changed the arrow and probably will give you the time on the clock without looking.Not quite sure what you're getting at here, but congrats on knowing the time on the clock? Again it looks stupid constantly digging in your pocket every time there is a held ball or when you change the arrow.In your opinion It is a crutch. It's a tool, but if that's what you want to call it -- okay

Peace

I think at a YMCA type of level, where the table doesn't have an arrow or know how to run the clock, just about everyone in the gym wants some kind of assurance AP is being done correctly. Never in my career have I heard anything negative about switching an item in my pocket. I have however heard positive feedback.

Now if I'm doing a 5A state game then I'm probably confident the table will do a great job. In this scenario no one in the gym cares to watch me play around with my pockets and look silly. There I'll just switch gum to a different side of my mouth so no one notices. I'll do that at any level because I've always found it tacky to turn around and look at the table if I space out and forget which way we're going.

These two examples have worked for me.

[JRutledge]

You can do what you want and this is not about the ability of the table. You should be in-tune to the game that you do not need some crutch that you will screw up and you still have to know which way you set the arrow.

Again, you assume that with everything going on you are going to always change the "whistle" to the right pocket.

Peace

[just another ref]

So, am I to understand that y'all absolutely favor the whistle in your pocket or your own recollection over the say-so of the person who is responsible for this by rule and is (hopefully) keeping up with it in the book as well as switching the arrow when appropriate? I try to observe that this is correctly done, but that's the end of it.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You can do what you want and this is not about the ability of the table. You should be in-tune to the game that you do not need some crutch that you will screw up and you still have to know which way you set the arrow.

Again, you assume that with everything going on you are going to always change the "whistle" to the right pocket.

Peace

I have a massive ego when it comes to being on the court. I know my limits, and keeping track of the arrow in my head is in no way certain no matter how hard I try to remember. I'm way more likely to get it right in my pocket than I am in my head. 99% of the time I get it right. The other 1% I go with the table/partner/etc.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by just another ref

So, am I to understand that y'all absolutely favor the whistle in your pocket or your own recollection over the say-so of the person who is responsible for this by rule and is (hopefully) keeping up with it in the book as well as switching the arrow when appropriate? I try to observe that this is correctly done, but that's the end of it.

Do we officiate the same sport? I enjoy any level of the game from little guys to college, but I'm wondering the last time you did a freshman game. Sometimes there is no arrow. Even when there is, half the time you look over the girl is on her phone texting.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Dad

Do we officiate the same sport? I enjoy any level of the game from little guys to college, but I'm wondering the last time you did a freshman game. Sometimes there is no arrow. Even when there is, half the time you look over the girl is on her phone texting.

Hence the word "absolutely." You know that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about when a competent grown person that you've seen at the table a hundred times tells you it's B's ball and you remember giving the ball to B last time which was 6 minutes ago, you will go with your recollection over what (s)he has written in the book?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Dad

I have a massive ego when it comes to being on the court. I know my limits, and keeping track of the arrow in my head is in no way certain no matter how hard I try to remember. I'm way more likely to get it right in my pocket than I am in my head. 99% of the time I get it right. The other 1% I go with the table/partner/etc.

This is not about ego, this is about being in the game. Again, I have had people not change the whistle in their pocket because they were tending to other things. So if it is the default as you suggest, it can be a mistake just like the table, the scoreboard or the official with the whistle made.

All I am saying is be into the game. Because if you use it as a default and you make a mistake, how do you solve the problem? I do not know about you, but many held balls are not things I am not paying attention to other things. And also think it looks bad to constantly be fidgeting with your pockets as if you do not have to pay attention to players or the benches during this time frame. Or even better yet, someone thinks something else about you going into your pockets all the time.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Dad

Unprofessional - this doesn't make sense

Not in mechanics manual - doesn't mean anything. Neither is carrying an extra shoe lace, but I looked like a bad-ass when mine broke and I had it fixed in under 40 seconds.

Not necessary - Until it is.

Remember it - good joke

Rely on the table - No.

Maybe these reasons apply for NBA, Big HS/College tourneys, etc. Even then I have still done it. I'm not going to muck up a game because all three of us are looking like idiots debating whether the table just screwed up an AP arrow.

Whether some like it or not, this is seen as unprofessional (Rut spells it out pretty well) in a lot of areas.

Whether some like it or not, it is expected in some areas.

Whether some like it or not, in some areas it is dependent upon what level of game you are working.

I think it looks rookie, like wearing earrings or backpedaling.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by Dad

I think at a YMCA type of level, where the table doesn't have an arrow or know how to run the clock, just about everyone in the gym wants some kind of assurance AP is being done correctly. Never in my career have I heard anything negative about switching an item in my pocket. I have however heard positive feedback.

Now if I'm doing a 5A state game then I'm probably confident the table will do a great job. In this scenario no one in the gym cares to watch me play around with my pockets and look silly. There I'll just switch gum to a different side of my mouth so no one notices. I'll do that at any level because I've always found it tacky to turn around and look at the table if I space out and forget which way we're going.

These two examples have worked for me.

In a HS game, I never use the whistle to keep track. It's not about confidence in the table. Rather I look at it like the officials should make sure that the arrow at the table is correct just like you would make sure that the score and/or fouls showing on the scoreboard are correct. If the score or fouls are wrong, then you should have them fixed as soon as it is practical. The same with the arrow. After the tip, check to ensure the clock started and that the arrow is correctly set and then after every held ball, check again. If it needs to be changed, tell the table to switch the arrow as you pass by.

In a youth/rec game, there is rarely even an arrow there so in that case I use a whistle in my pocket. I don't think this is an issue in rec/youth ball.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Adam

Whether some like it or not, this is seen as unprofessional (Rut spells it out pretty well) in a lot of areas.

Whether some like it or not, it is expected in some areas.

Whether some like it or not, in some areas it is dependent upon what level of game you are working.

I think it looks rookie, like wearing earrings or backpedaling.

This is not an area thing for me. There are people that do this in my area. I just telling them how silly they look and I do not see a lot of big-time veterans doing this and if they did I would still wonder "why?"

Peace

[BlueDevilRef]

Originally Posted by just another ref

So, am I to understand that y'all absolutely favor the whistle in your pocket or your own recollection over the say-so of the person who is responsible for this by rule and is (hopefully) keeping up with it in the book as well as switching the arrow when appropriate? I try to observe that this is correctly done, but that's the end of it.

Yep yep. 100000% agree. Just as it's not my job to count number of quarters for a player. We have a ton of crap to worry about. Stop looking for other things to make our responsibility.


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