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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 10:21am
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Correctable error?

Don't know what it is with scorer/timer issues the last week for me...last night BV game, my partner calls a foul on a rebound and the kid responds to him with a "you suck" so BANG ZOOM..goes to the table to report the personal and the tech which results in the kid fouling out. We get the replacement in and are trying to hash out the number of team fouls. Partner spends a good 30 seconds with the official scorer determining the number of team fouls and the scorer (who had his head up his arse the whole game) confirms/double confirms that the tech is #7. So we have no shots for the first foul and go to shoot the tech. Kid makes one and misses one and as we are about to inbound the ball the inbounder is asking me why we didn't shoot for the first foul and I say b/c that was only 6 and the tech was 7 and he goes "no it wasn't" and points to the board and sure enough now there are 8 team fouls. So we walk to the table again and WHOOPS the official scorer who confirmed and double confirmed that the tech was 7 was wrong, it was actually 8 and the scoreboard operator thought he could just go ahead and sneak that extra foul up on the board....so the three of us get together and determine that we have a correctbale error for failure to award the bonus free throws on the first foul. So we wipe the point off the board, shoot the 1 and 1 and then re-shoot the tech. Afterwards I started thinking about it and couldn't get it out of my head that I have seen this scenario discussed on this board and that the consensus was that this situation is not a failure to award since you did give them the tech free throws, that the correct thing to do would have been to not take the point off, but just to go ahead and award the 1 & 1 and give them the ball at the division line even though we would have been shooting out of order....somebody help me here did we kick this one?
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 10:28am
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I would have shot the one-and-one bonus then awarded the ball at half court.

-Josh
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 10:28am
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Yea, you kicked it, but don't worry about it too much. Next time (25 years from now!) you'll get it totally right.

Once the T is shot, it's shot. Now when you give the 1-and-1, it's not a do-over it's "correcting a correctable error" by just giving those shots that you didn't give. The correct restart was the inbounds at the division line, even without the T being the last shots, since that's the POI.

There's nothing nicer than a good table, and nothing more frustrating than a lousy one. I totally sympathize with your frustration!!
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 10:36am
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Originally Posted by Juulie Downs View Post
Yea, you kicked it, but don't worry about it too much. Next time (25 years from now!) you'll get it totally right.

Once the T is shot, it's shot. Now when you give the 1-and-1, it's not a do-over it's "correcting a correctable error" by just giving those shots that you didn't give. The correct restart was the inbounds at the division line, even without the T being the last shots, since that's the POI.

There's nothing nicer than a good table, and nothing more frustrating than a lousy one. I totally sympathize with your frustration!!
Thanks, I was afraid of that! Wish my instinct had been a little quicker on this one..figures that the second time around they make both of the tech shots and eventually end up cutting a 15 point deficit to 3 and I'm sitting there thinking to myself "please don't let that extra foul shot determine the outcome"...ended up being like a 9 pt game, so it didn't...yeah the table was brutal, pre-game I go over to check the book at like 11 mins and there is no scorer to be seen anywhere (probably at the concession stand), the visiting scorer has the official book and is writing the home team name/numbers in HIS book even though his team's names/numbers/starters are not in the official book yet!!! It was a bit unusual last night around here due to a snow storm we were starting about an hour late (turned my 1hr drive into 3 hrs), so they were only given 15 mins for warmups where it usually would be 20..so I was ready to be a little lenient as far as having everything in by 10, but come on!! I had to physically take the official book from this guy and tell the guy who was doing the announcing to write the numbers/starters from the visiting team into the official book so I could have a look...should've known it was gonna be a long night...
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 10:37am
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Juulie do you have a case book reference on this? Would like to send it to my partners...thanks!
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 10:40am
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Originally Posted by slow whistle View Post
the visiting scorer has the official book and is writing the home team name/numbers in HIS book even though his team's names/numbers/starters are not in the official book yet!!!
So what? There's no requirement that the numbers be in the official book by 10 minutes.
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 10:50am
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Originally Posted by slow whistle View Post
the visiting scorer has the official book and is writing the home team name/numbers in HIS book even though his team's names/numbers/starters are not in the official book yet!!! It was a bit unusual last night around here due to a snow storm we were starting about an hour late (turned my 1hr drive into 3 hrs), so they were only given 15 mins for warmups where it usually would be 20..so I was ready to be a little lenient as far as having everything in by 10, but come on!! I had to physically take the official book from this guy and tell the guy who was doing the announcing to write the numbers/starters from the visiting team into the official book so I could have a look...should've known it was gonna be a long night...
As Bob alluded to, they're required to provide the numbers to avoid the T. They are not required to have the numbers in the book to avoid the T. You can't possibly punish the visiting team (or home team, for that matter) if they've given the info to the scorer but the scorer either isn't there or hasn't entered the info yet.
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 10:52am
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Bob, are trying to make the point that they only need to be supplied not physically written in the book? Agreed, but since the official scorer was nowhere to be seen i guess he couldn't have been "supplied" with them could he? Point understood however..
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 10:53am
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Originally Posted by slow whistle View Post
Bob, are trying to make the point that they only need to be supplied not physically written in the book? Agreed, but since the official scorer was nowhere to be seen i guess he couldn't have been "supplied" with them could he? Point understood however..
Sure he could have. If the visitors have put their info on the table, or there's a visitor's scorer sitting there with the info; that's "supplied."
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 10:54am
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
As Bob alluded to, they're required to provide the numbers to avoid the T. They are not required to have the numbers in the book to avoid the T. You can't possibly punish the visiting team (or home team, for that matter) if they've given the info to the scorer but the scorer either isn't there or hasn't entered the info yet.
Agreed and I wasn't going to penalize since the official scorer was nowhere to be seen, but rather than have the visiting scorer sitting there with the official book transcribing into his own, I figured it was more important to get the numbers into the official book so I could review them, have the captains/coaches meeting, and get the hell away from the table...
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 12:16pm
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Originally Posted by slow whistle View Post
Agreed and I wasn't going to penalize since the official scorer was nowhere to be seen, but rather than have the visiting scorer sitting there with the official book transcribing into his own, I figured it was more important to get the numbers into the official book so I could review them, have the captains/coaches meeting, and get the hell away from the table...

Have the meeting first, then get to the book later. Or, check the numbers in the home team book and the visiting team book.

Physically taking the book from the V scorer and requesting the announcer to transcribe into the home book is way OOO, imho.
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 07:44pm
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By The Book (Get It ???) ???

So most you guys expect the book to be ready, i.e. names, and numbers, supplied, before the ten minute mark? Here in my little corner of the "Land of Steady Habits", the book almost never "ready" at ten ten minute mark, all the way up to, and including, high school varsity games. I have never seen, or heard about a technical foul penalty for this in 28 years. This seems to be our "custom", to give a little, or a lot of, leeway to the table crew. If we started enforcing the rule, as written in the book, after about a week, names , and numbers, would not only be supplied, they would be in the book at the twelve minute mark, which is when our referees are supposed to check the book. As it stands, if any of us called a technical foul, by the book, in this situation, we would be viewed by our assigner, our interpreters, and our evaluators, as being "overly officious officials".
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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 10:07am
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slowwhistle, instead of focusing on getting all the different table people to work together to get the info into the book, I'd focus on getting a person to the table to do the book, and let the book be late as long as there's SOMEONE THERE TO DO IT!!! Get with the AD, site supervisor, home coach if necessary, and get someone there!

This is more important than the book, because you need to establish a relationship with this person, in order to make the game less troublesome. Especially if there's just been a delay because of weather, you don't want one person starting the game and then the "real" person coming in late or never, with the sub just sort of hanging out, making mistakes, etc, etc etc. If the "real" person is gonna be late, you want to train and settle someone else and get that sitch all firmed up before the game starts. Then when the "real" person gets there (if ever) they can help, but keep that other person there and keep them learning.

There are two benefits to this. 1) You have some consistency on the book through the whole game. 2) That school has a substitute with some experience, for when the "real" person gets the flu or something.
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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 10:50am
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Originally Posted by slow whistle View Post
Juulie do you have a case book reference on this? Would like to send it to my partners...thanks!
MISTAKE IN ADMINISTRATION SEQUENCE
8.7 SITUATION B:
B1 fouls A1 just as the first quarter ends and then A1 retaliates
and intentionally contacts B1. A1s foul is a technical foul as it occurred during
a dead ball. Team A is in the bonus. The officials by mistake administer the
penalty for the technical foul before the free throw(s) by A1.
RULING: The penalties
should have been administered in the order in which the fouls occurred.
However, since all merited free throws were attempted it does not constitute a
correctable error situation. The second quarter will begin with an alternating-possession
throw-in. (4-19-5c)

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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 10:55am
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Bob, are trying to make the point that they only need to be supplied not physically written in the book? Agreed, but since the official scorer was nowhere to be seen i guess he couldn't have been "supplied" with them could he? Point understood however..
Yeah but the numbers were at the disposition of the table.
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