"Change of possession" correctable error

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by SC Official

It makes no sense to me why the NFHS uses the undefined term "possession" instead of the proper term "control" or "team control."

It is partially because a team has "possession" at times beyond when they have control. Possession, as it is often used, includes the time from when an infraction occurs such that the penalty grants the team a throwin/FT to the time when the ball becomes live.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

and a FT doesn't end until the try is successful, when the ball touches the floor or any player, or when the ball becomes dead. So from the time the ball is at the disposal of the free thrower, to when one of the things in the last sentence happens, the ball is in Team A's control.

Already covered is the fact that there is no team control when a FT is in the air. However, there is one more thing here that is also incorrect. There is one more reason a ends that you haven't listed and it is among the more common reasons.

Rule 4-20 ART. 3 . . . The free throw ends when the try is successful, when it is certain the try will not be successful, when the try touches the floor or any player, or when the ball becomes dead.

So, the FT ends when it comes off the rim, not later as you imply.

As for the rules support for the fact that team control ends when the FT is released:

Rule 4-37 ART. 1 . . . Rebounding is an attempt by any player to secure possession of the ball following a try or tap for goal. In a rebounding situation there is no player or team control.

The rule you reference about the try and control only referring to 2 or 3 point shots and not FTs is just wrong. It says a "FIELD" goal is an attempt to score 2 or 3 points, not that a try is an attempt to score 2 or 3. Rule 4-12 says that team control continues until a try or tap is in flight without regard to whether it is a FT or a FG.

Then there is the definition of a FT:

Rule 4-20 ART. 1 . . . A free throw is the opportunity given a player to score one point by an unhindered try for goal from within the free-throw semicircle and behind the free-throw line.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

...
Why would 4-41-2 be so specific about the number of points a try is worth? ....

It is specific about the number of points a FIELD GOAL is worth. You've decided to arbitrarily leave out the words FIELD GOAL, then are chastising people who say your interpretation is wrong.

A try can be a field goal or a free throw.

A field goal is worth either 2 or 3 points

A free throw is worth 1 point.

[mcdanrd]

In this scenario the ball never became live. Rule 4.13.6 states that neither team control nor player control exists during a dead ball. Rule 6.7.2a states that the ball remains dead on a free throw which is to be followed by another free throw.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

...

Either 4-20-1 or 4-41-2 is written incorrectly. So was 4-41-2 needlessly precise about the number of points, or should 4-20-1 not use the words "try for goal", thus causing this confusion?

Personally, I go with the one that was more precise.

Sorry, but I don't like people telling me there is confusion when there isn't any. A free throw is a TRY FOR GOAL, and that is clearly stated in 4-20 Art. 1

Team Control ends when the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal. Basketball 101. No confusion for me at all.

[BryanV21]

First, I originally quoted the entire rule. I didn't leave any words out. I certainly didn't try to deceive.

Secondly, the words "free throw" are not included anywhere in the definition of "shooting, try, tap", thus my assumption. After all, team control continues until "the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal". I then looked up the definition of a "try or tap".

Finally, I've never said I was absolutely right. I just brought up evidence of it. I went to sleep last night thinking what I said can't be right since that would mean a foul by A2 while A1's free throw attempt was in the air is a team control foul. However, what I'd read also made sense.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Sorry, but I don't like people telling me there is confusion when there isn't any. A free throw is a TRY FOR GOAL, and that is clearly stated in 4-20 Art. 1

Team Control ends when the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal. Basketball 101. No confusion for me at all.

Cute.

However, confusion on the part of one person does not mean confusion on the part of all people. I guess you forget part of the reason this message board exists, which is to help those that may need it.

And I think I laid out the reason for that confusion quite well. Or did you choose to skip my bringing up the fact that 4-41 does not include the words "free throw"?

I never said I was right and anybody was wrong. I gave reasons why I thought I was right. If anybody took that to mean I was calling them fools, or wrong... sorry.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BigCat

There is clearly a change in possession from A shooting the FT and B rebounding the ball. The rule says however, no change of possession "since the error was made." The error here is made when B rebounds the ball and plays on. The play has been in the book for years. best i can come up with at this time..to support the case play...

IIRC (an increasingly rare occurrence, I admit), at one time, the case said "shoot the second FT and give the ball back to B." Then, it was changed to the present -- with no explanation. I do think it was posted with an asterisk next to it, so at least it wasn't an "unannounced change."

There are other examples, I am sure, where errors haven't been re-edited to be correct.

And, a FT is a try, and there's team control.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by mcdanrd

In this scenario the ball never became live. Rule 4.13.6 states that neither team control nor player control exists during a dead ball. Rule 6.7.2a states that the ball remains dead on a free throw which is to be followed by another free throw.

Originally Posted by mcdanrd

I Disagree. Rule 6-7Article 2a states that the ball remains deadwhen a free throw is to be followed by another free throw. The official incorrectly indicating a 1-1 situation and team B getting a rebound does not change the fact that the ball is still dead and a second free throw is to follow.

Is no one going to comment on how completely wrong this guy is?

[bballref3966]

Originally Posted by mcdanrd

In this scenario the ball never became live. Rule 4.13.6 states that neither team control nor player control exists during a dead ball. Rule 6.7.2a states that the ball remains dead on a free throw which is to be followed by another free throw.

What? You need to read Rule 6.

[Raymond]

Well, when you respond like you did below, don't expect cute and cuddly responses.

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Sorry, but I don't like simply being told I'm wrong, or what I said isn't right. I'm not a little kid whose mom or dad decides to tell me something is the way it is "because I told you so". And if you were just backing up what bballref had to say, then why not say that? ....

Now back to the real discussion.

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Cute.

However, confusion on the part of one person does not mean confusion on the part of all people. I guess you forget part of the reason this message board exists, which is to help those that may need it.

And I think I laid out the reason for that confusion quite well. Or did you choose to skip my bringing up the fact that 4-41 does not include the words "free throw"?

I never said I was right and anybody was wrong. I gave reasons why I thought I was right. If anybody took that to mean I was calling them fools, or wrong... sorry.

Nothing in 4-41 tells you that a Free Throw is not a try. You took 4-41 Art 2's definition of a FIELD GOAL and assumed that was the definition of a try. Your error was pointed out to you a couple of times and you chose to get defensive.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by deecee

Is no one going to comment on how completely wrong this guy is?

Why pass the buck? Be a Crew Chief and take charge.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by mcdanrd

I Disagree. Rule 6-7Article 2a states that the ball remains deadwhen a free throw is to be followed by another free throw. The official incorrectly indicating a 1-1 situation and team B getting a rebound does not change the fact that the ball is still dead and a second free throw is to follow.

6-7-2a is the general rule. Ball becomes dead when it is apparent a FT is not successful and another one is to follow. However, when there is a screwup and the teams play on after the first free throw, clock starts ...you have entered the twilight /correctable error zone. We have the provision in rule 2 which says something like "consumed time, points scored and additional activity which occur prior to recognition of error…shall not be nullified."

So yes, the ball is dead or should be dead after the first miss when a free throw is to be followed by another free throw but it comes to "life" if everybody screws up-- players, referees, timers etc...and play goes on….

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Well, when you respond like you did below, don't expect cute and cuddly responses.




Now back to the real discussion.




Nothing in 4-41 tells you that a Free Throw is not a try. You took 4-41 Art 2's definition of a FIELD GOAL and assumed that was the definition of a try. Your error was pointed out to you a couple of times and you chose to get defensive.

If 4-12-3a is going to simply say team control continues until the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal, then perhaps the definition of a try or tap should include the words "free throw" in there.

By the way, no need to come back with another "field goal is not a free throw" thing. I get it. But seeing how "field goal" is not clearly defined in Rule 4 as meaning a shot from the field... not a free throw, I wanted clarification. Heck, maybe it is and I'm not seeing it.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

If 4-12-3a is going to simply say team control continues until the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal, then perhaps the definition of a try or tap should include the words "free throw" in there.

By the way, no need to come back with another "field goal is not a free throw" thing. I get it. But seeing how "field goal" is not clearly defined in Rule 4 as meaning a shot from the field... not a free throw, I wanted clarification. Heck, maybe it is and I'm not seeing it.

Actually, "try" is not defined explicitly either. We have to mesh together when it starts (4-41 Art. 3) and when it ends (4-41 Art. 4) to come up with a definition. But in 4-41 Art. 2, we are told that field goals are tries of the 2 and 3 point variety. And we are also told in 4-21 Art. 1 that a free throw is a "try" for goal.