Player/Team Control during "simultaneous possession"?

[MechanicGuy]

...or more precisely, in the moment immediately before the whistle is blown for a jump ball.

Which team, if any, is in team control?

Can a team call timeout? Can a player travel?

In both cases, I've always resorted to calling a jump ball. I remember being taught that in these situations there is no team control, and thus neither team can call a timeout.

I can't find a caseplay supporting this though, so I'm wondering if I've been taught this wrong.

Thoughts?

[just another ref]

You realize that the whistle is not the key, right? I believe that simultaneous possession is not a term that can be found in the books, but rather when opponents have such a firm grasp on the ball that it cannot be pulled away without using excessive force. (or something like that) When this occurs, the ball is dead, regardless of when the whistle blows. A timeout or a travel would have to occur before this point.

[MechanicGuy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

You realize that the whistle is not the key, right? I believe that simultaneous possession is not a term that can be found in the books, but rather when opponents have such a firm grasp on the ball that it cannot be pulled away without using excessive force. (or something like that) When this occurs, the ball is dead, regardless of when the whistle blows. A timeout or a travel would have to occur before this point.

Yes, but coaches don't seem to like that explanation. They see a tie-up, scream time-out just before the whistle and expect their request to be granted.

It doesn't help that some officials will comply.

I was trying to find solid ground in the rules, but was unsuccessful.

[Nevadaref]

The definition of player control is holding or dribbling a live ball. Player control confers team control. When one team has control the other does not.

[MechanicGuy]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The definition of player control is holding or dribbling a live ball. Player control confers team control. When one team has control the other does not.

I appreciate the response, though I'm not entirely sure how this answers my question.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by MechanicGuy

I appreciate the response, though I'm not entirely sure how this answers my question.

Your question contains a term which is undefined. But, if by simultaneous possession, you mean that both players have a firm hold on the ball, the answer is no. No timeout and no travel. This is a held ball and that's all it is.


If one player is in control and the other merely gets a hand on it, not firmly enough for a held ball, then a timeout or a travel could be called.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by MechanicGuy

I appreciate the response, though I'm not entirely sure how this answers my question.

That's because your play does not contain all the necessary information.

*IF* A has the ball and B is "in the process" of tieing it up, then grant the TO (to A).

But if neither team has the ball (say during rebounding action) and both teams are about to tie it up, then don't grant the TO.

[MechanicGuy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Your question contains a term which is undefined. But, if by simultaneous possession, you mean that both players have a firm hold on the ball, the answer is no. No timeout and no travel. This is a held ball and that's all it is.


If one player is in control and the other merely gets a hand on it, not firmly enough for a held ball, then a timeout or a travel could be called.

Thanks for the confirmation. This is how I've always called it.

I was merely curious about anything in the rules that covers this specifically, but it appears there isn't anything.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by just another ref

You realize that the whistle is not the key, right? I believe that simultaneous possession is not a term that can be found in the books, but rather when opponents have such a firm grasp on the ball that it cannot be pulled away without using excessive force. (or something like that) When this occurs, the ball is dead, regardless of when the whistle blows. A timeout or a travel would have to occur before this point.

Exactly right. As BB Rules Fundamental #16 states, "The official's whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead)." So if the ball is tied up, your whistle is merely a marker for an event that has already made the ball dead.

Can a player travel during a dead ball? No. Can a coach call a timeout during a dead ball? Yes, but common sense says the reason he/she screamed "time out" was in the hopes that player control still existed before the held ball. So to respond to the coach who says, "I was calling time out!!!", all you have to say is, "Coach, the ball was already tied up. That said, would you still like a timeout?" Nine times out of ten they'll decline.

If you hear the TO request while the train is coming off the tracks but need to glance in the direction of the bench to confirm it, and while that happens your partner whistles a held ball, I'd immediately go tell your partner that you believe the time out was called prior to the held ball. If you agree, grant the timeout and ignore the held ball.

[Rob1968]

4-12-1 CONTROL, PLAYER AND TEAM . . . A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball.

4-25-1 HELD BALL . . . A held ball occurs when: . . . Opponents have their hands so formly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness.

All other statements in the Rules Book, that I have found, refer to "player control" in the singular. The statement in 4-25-1 agrees, in that although the "opponents have their hands (so) firmly on the ball" . . . control cannot be obtained . . .

I have found no reference of "simultaneous control".

The conclusion is that in such cases, as previously mentioned, neither player nor their opponent has control, it is simply a "held ball."

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by MechanicGuy

Yes, but coaches don't seem to like that explanation. They see a tie-up, scream time-out just before the whistle and expect their request to be granted.

It doesn't help that some officials will comply.

I was trying to find solid ground in the rules, but was unsuccessful.

If a player is dribbling or holding the ball, he has player control and his team has team control.

If both players are holding the ball, it's a held ball. You can't have traveling. Neither team can be granted a timeout and after you whistle the held ball.

Who cares whether the coaches likes the explanation or not? Call what you see!