"Change of possession" correctable error

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Nope, it's just because someone with the NFHS wrote that incorrectly. There is clearly a change of team possession from A attempting a FT to B rebounding the miss.
The proper way to administer this play is to halt the game with Team B in control at midcourt, have A1 attempt the second FT with no players along the lane, and then return to midcourt and award Team B a POI throw-in.

There is clearly a change in possession from A shooting the FT and B rebounding the ball. The rule says however, no change of possession "since the error was made." The error here is made when B rebounds the ball and plays on. The play has been in the book for years. best i can come up with at this time..to support the case play...

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by BigCat

There is clearly a change in possession from A shooting the FT and B rebounding the ball. The rule says however, no change of possession "since the error was made." The error here is made when B rebounds the ball and plays on. The play has been in the book for years. best i can come up with at this time..to support the case play...

Is there team possession on a free throw? I don't believe there is. Can't have a change of possession if A never has team control.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Is there team possession on a free throw? I don't believe there is. Can't have a change of possession if A never has team control.

If team A is holding the ball or it is at it's "disposal" they have team control. free throw, throw in...etc. look over team control and live ball dead ball stuff. thx

[SC Official]

It makes no sense to me why the NFHS uses the undefined term "possession" instead of the proper term "control" or "team control."

[BryanV21]

Rule 4-41-2

"A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into the team's own basket."

Therefore, according to this, a free throw is not a "try", and therefore the rule about team control ending on a try for goal is irrelevant here. A team is in control when the ball is at the disposal of the FT shooter, and a FT doesn't end until the try is successful, when the ball touches the floor or any player, or when the ball becomes dead. So from the time the ball is at the disposal of the free thrower, to when one of the things in the last sentence happens, the ball is in Team A's control.

But anyway, like BigCat said, the error doesn't occur until Team B gains control and the clock is started by an official. Therefore, Team B was in control from the time the error occurred until the error was found. So no change of possession occurred... shoot the 2nd FT, and go from there.

[bballref3966]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Rule 4-41-2

"A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into the team's own basket."

Therefore, according to this, a free throw is not a "try", and therefore the rule about team control ending on a try for goal is irrelevant here. A team is in control when the ball is at the disposal of the FT shooter, and a FT doesn't end until the try is successful, when the ball touches the floor or any player, or when the ball becomes dead. So from the time the ball is at the disposal of the free thrower, to when one of the things in the last sentence happens, the ball is in Team A's control.

Disagree.

4-20-1

“A free throw is the opportunity given a player to score one point by an unhindered try for goal from within the free-throw semicircle and behind the free-throw line.”

So, there is some discrepancy between 4-41-2, which says that "a try for field goal...two or three points..." and 4-20-1. But it's pretty clear to me that the intent of the rule is that team control ends upon the release of the free throw.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Therefore, according to this, a free throw is not a "try", and therefore the rule about team control ending on a try for goal is irrelevant here. A team is in control when the ball is at the disposal of the FT shooter, and a FT doesn't end until the try is successful, when the ball touches the floor or any player, or when the ball becomes dead. So from the time the ball is at the disposal of the free thrower, to when one of the things in the last sentence happens, the ball is in Team A's control.

This is not correct.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by SC Official

This is not correct.

Would you mind telling me why? I'm not saying my interpretation is right, but just saying I'm wrong is a little messed up.

See bballref.

Speaking of which, I'm not the first person to point out a discrepancy between a rules apparent intent and what is actually written. If I have to explain a call to somebody I'm more likely to go by what is actually written, not what I think they meant to write.

And another poster (sorry for being lazy and not going back to see who) pointed out that this case play has been around for a long time. Not to say it would be the first time the NFHS has botched something, but there's a decent chance it's correct as written.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

and a FT doesn't end until the try is successful, when the ball touches the floor or any player, or when the ball becomes dead. So from the time the ball is at the disposal of the free thrower, to when one of the things in the last sentence happens, the ball is in Team A's control.

Already covered is the fact that there is no team control when a FT is in the air. However, there is one more thing here that is also incorrect. There is one more reason a ends that you haven't listed and it is among the more common reasons.

Rule 4-20 ART. 3 . . . The free throw ends when the try is successful, when it is certain the try will not be successful, when the try touches the floor or any player, or when the ball becomes dead.

So, the FT ends when it comes off the rim, not later as you imply.

As for the rules support for the fact that team control ends when the FT is released:

Rule 4-37 ART. 1 . . . Rebounding is an attempt by any player to secure possession of the ball following a try or tap for goal. In a rebounding situation there is no player or team control.

The rule you reference about the try and control only referring to 2 or 3 point shots and not FTs is just wrong. It says a "FIELD" goal is an attempt to score 2 or 3 points, not that a try is an attempt to score 2 or 3. Rule 4-12 says that team control continues until a try or tap is in flight without regard to whether it is a FT or a FG.

Then there is the definition of a FT:

Rule 4-20 ART. 1 . . . A free throw is the opportunity given a player to score one point by an unhindered try for goal from within the free-throw semicircle and behind the free-throw line.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by SC Official

It makes no sense to me why the NFHS uses the undefined term "possession" instead of the proper term "control" or "team control."

It is partially because a team has "possession" at times beyond when they have control. Possession, as it is often used, includes the time from when an infraction occurs such that the penalty grants the team a throwin/FT to the time when the ball becomes live.

[crosscountry55]

This has been in the case book since at least 1997-8 when I started (and probably a lot longer). I admit that it perplexed the heck out of me as well. But I will say that if NFHS had an editing error, surely it would have fixed it by now. Ok, ok....I'll settle for "hopefully" it would have fixed it by now considering we're talking mostly about the Struckhoff era.

Anyway, here's the deal. BigCat was correct in that the sequence and the words matter. There is no correctable error until it becomes clear that there is a failure to award a merited free throw, and this happens when B rebounds and the officials signal to start the clock. That's the initial possession of concern. Even if you argue that the error is recognized when players in the lane spaces start to go in, the free throw has already been released at that point, and we all know that there is no team control (and therefore no possession) on a try.

Say it with me now.....there has been no change in possession since the error was recognized.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BigCat

There is clearly a change in possession from A shooting the FT and B rebounding the ball. The rule says however, no change of possession "since the error was made." The error here is made when B rebounds the ball and plays on. The play has been in the book for years. best i can come up with at this time..to support the case play...

IIRC (an increasingly rare occurrence, I admit), at one time, the case said "shoot the second FT and give the ball back to B." Then, it was changed to the present -- with no explanation. I do think it was posted with an asterisk next to it, so at least it wasn't an "unannounced change."

There are other examples, I am sure, where errors haven't been re-edited to be correct.

And, a FT is a try, and there's team control.