UVA Vandy collision (Video)

[ozzy6900]

Once again, we have a runner getting into a situation where he needs to cover up (protect himself) in a collision.

"He lowered his shoulder" - Really? The runner bent over at the waist and put both arms up to protect his face and head!

What is he supposed to do, go in with his hands in his pockets? Yeah, a lot of you say he should have given himself up... I do not agree.

[David B]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Thanks JJ.

Your right, easy call. MC. Definitely dropped the shoulder.

I agree, that's what should have been called, U3 might not have seen it but U2 or PU should have been able to see it clearly.

As Rich said, sometimes you are just out - F5 has the ball he was on the inside of the play as you are taught - the runner had a path to the bag and chose to try and dislodge the ball via contact.

Thanks
David

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Didn't see the play, but the same ruling would hold true in OBR and FED.

So in OBR, a runner collides at home with the catcher waiting with the ball, and the runner would be ruled out for interference, and we send the previous runner who is now standing on third back to second? I've never seen that called in OBR.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by BigTex

Third base still legally belonged to the runner who was called out for interference, therefore the following runner was only legally entitled to second.

Really? If that were the case, then the defense could tag a following runner who is standing on third base before tagging out a lead runner caught in a rundown between third and home, and get credited with a double play. Surely the following runner is legally entitled to third until the lead runner returns and occupies third as well.

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Once again, we have a runner getting into a situation where he needs to cover up (protect himself) in a collision.

"He lowered his shoulder" - Really? The runner bent over at the waist and put both arms up to protect his face and head!

What is he supposed to do, go in with his hands in his pockets? Yeah, a lot of you say he should have given himself up... I do not agree.

Ozzy, the runner was 100% responsible for this collision. The fielder didn't even move from his spot. The runner ran full steam over the fielder and had every intention of running him over. I'd be with you if this was one of those throws from the outfield where the fielder suddenly moves... but he was standing perfectly still.

This is clearly malicious and should have been an ejection.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Manny A

So in OBR, a runner collides at home with the catcher waiting with the ball, and the runner would be ruled out for interference, and we send the previous runner who is now standing on third back to second? I've never seen that called in OBR.

Not at all what I said.

Given that there was INT during the rundown, R2 would be returned to second even if he was touching third at the time of INT.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Really? If that were the case, then the defense could tag a following runner who is standing on third base before tagging out a lead runner caught in a rundown between third and home, and get credited with a double play. Surely the following runner is legally entitled to third until the lead runner returns and occupies third as well.

Not true. He can't be tagged out if he is the only one on the base, but he doesn't legally occupy it.

There's a specific comment in the rule book on this play that applies.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Not true. He can't be tagged out if he is the only one on the base, but he doesn't legally occupy it.

Then I guess I've been misunderstanding OBR 7.01 all these years.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Once again, we have a runner getting into a situation where he needs to cover up (protect himself) in a collision.

"He lowered his shoulder" - Really? The runner bent over at the waist and put both arms up to protect his face and head!

What is he supposed to do, go in with his hands in his pockets? Yeah, a lot of you say he should have given himself up... I do not agree.

"The runner bent over at the waist and put both arms up to protect his face and head!"

From what Oz?

I agree, that baseball is a much different game than how it was played 30 years ago but, it is not 30 years ago Oz.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Then I guess I've been misunderstanding OBR 7.01 all these years.

There is a semantic problem in 7. But if you read the "his" in 7.08(c) as He is tagged...,while off a base you should be able to resolve it.

Or read this thread and see if we convinced anyone:interesting run down situation

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by umpjim

There is a semantic problem in 7. But if you read the "his" in 7.08(c) as He is tagged...,while off a base you should be able to resolve it.

Actually, it is his base for the time being, but his ownership is subject to revocation should the deed holder return.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by bossman72

Ozzy, the runner was 100% responsible for this collision. The fielder didn't even move from his spot. The runner ran full steam over the fielder and had every intention of running him over. I'd be with you if this was one of those throws from the outfield where the fielder suddenly moves... but he was standing perfectly still.

This is clearly malicious and should have been an ejection.

Sorry, I do not agree with MC on this one. I've watched the video several times and all I see is R3 trying to get back to the base and a collision. R3 was covering up to protect himself.

[BigTex]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Really? If that were the case, then the defense could tag a following runner who is standing on third base before tagging out a lead runner caught in a rundown between third and home, and get credited with a double play. Surely the following runner is legally entitled to third until the lead runner returns and occupies third as well.

Yes, really. For the reasons laid out by other posters.

There is a difference between "legally entitled to" as it applies to liability to be out if tagged, and "legally acquired" as it applies to base placement after interference.

On a side note, I'm not sure how U3 can call interference here. Can someone explain that to me?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BigTex

On a side note, I'm not sure how U3 can call interference here. Can someone explain that to me?

Here's the NCAA Collision Rule:

Collision Rule
SECTION 7. The rules committee is concerned about unnecessary and violent
collisions with the catcher at home plate, and with infielders at all bases. The
intent of this rule is to encourage base runners and defensive players to avoid such
collisions whenever possible.
When there is a collision between a runner and a fielder who clearly is in
possession of the ball, the umpire shall judge:
If the defensive player blocks the base (plate) or base line with clear possession
of the ball, the runner may make contact, slide into or make contact with a fielder
as long as the runner is making a legitimate attempt to reach the base (plate).
Contact above the waist that was initiated by the base runner shall not be judged
as an attempt to reach the base or plate.
(1) The runner must make an actual attempt to reach the base (plate).
PENALTY—If the runner attempts to dislodge the ball or initiates an
avoidable collision, the runner shall be declared out, even if
the fielder loses possession of the ball. The ball is dead and all
other base runners shall return to the last base touched at the
time of the interference.
(2) The runner may not attempt to dislodge the ball from the fielder. Contact
above the waist shall be judged by the umpire as an attempt by the runner
to dislodge the ball.
PENALTY—If the contact is flagrant or malicious before the runner touches
the plate, the runner shall be declared out and also ejected from
the contest. The ball is immediately dead and all other base
runners shall return to the last base touched at the time of the
interference.
(3) The runner must attempt to avoid a collision if he can reach the base
without colliding.
PENALTY—If the contact is flagrant or malicious after the runner touches
the base (plate), the runner is safe, but is ejected from the
contest. The ball is immediately dead and all other base
runners shall return to the last base touched at the time of the
interference. If this occurs at any base other than home, the
offending team may replace the runner.
If the contact occurs after a preceding runner touches home
plate, the preceding runner is safe. The ball is immediately
dead and all other base runners shall return to the last base
touched at the time of the contact.
(4) If the runner’s path to the base is blocked and (1), (2) and (3) are fulfilled,
it is considered unavoidable contact (see Rule 2-54, Obstruction).

[BigTex]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Here's the NCAA Collision Rule:

Collision Rule
SECTION 7. The rules committee is concerned about unnecessary and violent
collisions with the catcher at home plate, and with infielders at all bases. The
intent of this rule is to encourage base runners and defensive players to avoid such
collisions whenever possible.
When there is a collision between a runner and a fielder who clearly is in
possession of the ball, the umpire shall judge:
If the defensive player blocks the base (plate) or base line with clear possession
of the ball, the runner may make contact, slide into or make contact with a fielder
as long as the runner is making a legitimate attempt to reach the base (plate).
Contact above the waist that was initiated by the base runner shall not be judged
as an attempt to reach the base or plate.
(1) The runner must make an actual attempt to reach the base (plate).
PENALTY—If the runner attempts to dislodge the ball or initiates an
avoidable collision, the runner shall be declared out, even if
the fielder loses possession of the ball. The ball is dead and all
other base runners shall return to the last base touched at the
time of the interference.
(2) The runner may not attempt to dislodge the ball from the fielder. Contact
above the waist shall be judged by the umpire as an attempt by the runner
to dislodge the ball.
PENALTY—If the contact is flagrant or malicious before the runner touches
the plate, the runner shall be declared out and also ejected from
the contest. The ball is immediately dead and all other base
runners shall return to the last base touched at the time of the
interference.
(3) The runner must attempt to avoid a collision if he can reach the base
without colliding.
PENALTY—If the contact is flagrant or malicious after the runner touches
the base (plate), the runner is safe, but is ejected from the
contest. The ball is immediately dead and all other base
runners shall return to the last base touched at the time of the
interference. If this occurs at any base other than home, the
offending team may replace the runner.
If the contact occurs after a preceding runner touches home
plate, the preceding runner is safe. The ball is immediately
dead and all other base runners shall return to the last base
touched at the time of the contact.
(4) If the runner’s path to the base is blocked and (1), (2) and (3) are fulfilled,
it is considered unavoidable contact (see Rule 2-54, Obstruction).

Thank you for the reference.